[MD] Intellectual level of MOQ

[Ian Glendinning]

My simple view (You've hit on the recurring problem the squad has -
the definition of intellect - it always ends in tears) ...

For the dogma to work the "hardwired" functionality can't be
considered within the definition of MoQish "intellect". Simple as
that.

But like you I see social and intellect as orthogonal above biological
= Tuukka had a great attempt at drawing the MoQ "layers" in more than
2 dimensions - to get rid of the illusion (on paper) that intellect
arises over social. Clearly they co-evolve, with each other both on
top of biological.

But as I say this debate usually degenerates into fisticuffs over the
definition(s) of intellect.

Good luck
Ian

On Tue, Jul 17, 2012 at 7:10 PM, T-REXX Techs, Inc.
<trexxtechs at bellsouth.net> wrote:
> Greetings, everyone!
>
> I am the author of "Quality and Inspirationality (Part 1)" that was recently
> posted on the robertpirsig.org website.  I am working on a rewrite of what
> is to be Part 2, but I've hit a conceptual impasse, and I need help in
> resolving it.
>
> Pirsig seems to maintain that there's no such thing as intellect outside a
> social setting.  If I understand correctly, according to MOQ, intellect
> evolves from the social level, not from the biological.  He seems to be
> saying that we are born with a blank slate, and concepts get written on it
> entirely from our social interactions.  But I can't get it through my head
> that our brain would be no different from an ant's brain in that respect:
> both blank, with nothing inherent in the biological architecture.  It seems
> to me there's a lot of "meat" in a human brain, and I can't understand how
> there could be no hardware functionality in it at all.
>
> My Part 2 essay is based on ideas from Bergson's Creative Evolution.  In his
> development of the evolution story there's a biological trait he calls
> intellect.  He distinguishes this trait from instinct by the form of innate
> knowledge it displays.  Instinctive creatures have organic tools that are
> parts of their bodies, and they know how to use them precisely on a limited
> range of objects.  But intelligent creatures have an inherent capability of
> making and using inorganic tools.  So instinct is an intimate and exact
> knowledge of a limited range of objects.  But intellect is a knowledge of
> forms that allows imprecise but effective action on an infinite array of
> things, so the story goes.  This makes a lot of sense to me, and it seems on
> the face of it entirely supportive of the philosophy of quality and the MOQ.
> But it doesn't seem to be allowed in light of the MOQ's prescribed levels of
> evolution.
>
> I believe in Pirsig's system of thought, and I passionately support his
> motivation of wanting to help people see a better way of living.  But it
> seems that MOQ has accumulated some layers of dogma that I can't get
> through.  I feel that I'm not allowed to think of myself as an individual
> self, because that would be forbidden SOM thinking. But I can't get past the
> idea that there's a strong feeling of identification of myself, roughly in
> the confines of a physical body and operating in a physical brain, as
> separate from all the rest of what's out there.  I can't say I would become
> "conscious" if I were somehow born as the only human being on some island.
> But I can't imagine not being conscious and self aware if my "society" were
> just my immediate parents.
>
> I also feel artificially restrained in the way I'm allowed to say things.
> I'd like to talk about the distinction between self and not self that I feel
> from the inside.  But MOQ says that's not allowed; that's SOM language.  But
> still I feel it.  I'd like to talk about objects, like a baseball, in a sort
> of common sense way, not in a specialized conceptual way, but again, that
> seems to violate "political correctness".  I want to use and support and
> contribute to MOQ, but I'm feeling hamstrung by it.
>
> Can someone, anyone, in the "squad" help me out of this impasse?
>
> Many thanks,
>
>
>
> John L. McConnell
>
> Office:  407-859-2637
>
> Cell:     321-438-6301
>
> Home:  407-857-2004
>
> Email:   <mailto:trexxtechs at bellsouth.net> trexxtechs at bellsouth.net
>
>
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