[MD] humpty dumpty

Sat Jul 28 23:44:45 PDT 2012

Greetings David,

I've been wrestling with this knot for a long time without finding a clear way to explain it logically. It seems like I know it well, but cannot find the words to put it together as a logical explanation.  It is darn frustrating!   

At the very least I can say that if by the term 'pre-intellectual' you are meaning pre-intellectual-patterns (the fourth and highest level on the evolutionary, hierarchical structure presented in the MoQ) than by default you fall into the categories of inorganic, biological, & social patterns, and that is not pointing to Dynamic Quality.  Dynamic Quality is unpatterned.  Dynamic Quality is undifferentiated.  
i
Consciousness is a puzzler.  Consciousness does not seem to be a container.  I cannot directly perceive it anymore than I can directly see my own eye, but I can experience it as the flow of bits and pieces of patterns.  Consciousness does seem to be like the platform on which Dynamic Quality is differentiated, defined and known (as inorganic, biological, social and intellectual patterns.)   -  And an additional point that I am making is that RMP (in the quote) doesn't confine this "process of defining" (consciousness) solely to the intellectual level; he does not equate _definition_ with intellectual pattern. 

Marsha 

On Jul 28, 2012, at 9:18 PM, David Harding <davidjharding at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Marsha,
> 
> I cannot see this. How is pre-definition different than pre-intellectual?  Is not intellectual a part of consciousness as well? 
> 
> -David.
> 
> 
> On 27/07/2012, at 5:26 PM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
> 
>> Hi David,
>> 
>> I agree with you about starting with undefined Dynamic Quality, but tend to be a little more hesitant concerning the use of betterness.  Maybe something like 'pre-definition' would be better terminology for DQ than 'pre-intellectual'.  I think the 'defining process and definitions' are better placed with consciousness.  All patterns from all levels have been isolated, have been named and assigned a definition of sorts identifying it.  And in LILA's CHILD, RMP states "Consciousness can be described is a process of deﬁning Dynamic Quality. But once the deﬁnitions emerge, they are static patterns and no longer apply to Dynamic Quality.".  So I contend that there is interdependence between consciousness and all static quality and it is interaction where they are perceived and/or conceptualized.  Static patterns can be identified with a level when it is determined what type of value they prefer.
>> 
>> Thanks for responding.  
>> 
>> 
>> Marsha 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Jul 26, 2012, at 7:07 AM, David Harding <davidjharding at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> To be precise - in the MOQ we start with Dynamic Quality which is undefined betterness and work from there.. 
>>> 
>>> On 26/07/2012, at 8:32 PM, MarshaV wrote:
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> So, it is okay to start with a social static pattern of value, or a biological static pattern of value, or inorganic static pattern of value, but definitely not an intellectual static pattern of value?  
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Jul 26, 2012, at 5:58 AM, David Harding wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Yes, a belief can be seen as an intellectual pattern of value. So it's good to start with value first - and then define it intellectually.  That way we can 'take' an idea based on how good it is and not worry about which is the one 'true' idea.
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 26/07/2012, at 7:37 PM, MarshaV wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Greetings David,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Theoretically I am not going to disagree with you, but isn't 'belief' merely a static pattern of value: value? 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Marsha
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Jul 26, 2012, at 4:02 AM, David Harding <davidjharding at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Marsha,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I think it's better in philosophy, rather than to start from beliefs, but to start from experience. Specifically our experience of value.   If we are willing to re-evaluate our 'beliefs' based on experience of value, then the beliefs or ideas which we 'take' would be those best suited to that particular situation.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> -David.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 26/07/2012, at 5:03 PM, MarshaV wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> When we tackle a philosophical problem, we have no choice but to start from our present beliefs; but in the course of "thinking on these things" we may reject some of our beliefs on the grounds that they conflict with others that we are not prepared to reject.  To give an example, we might start off with the belief that we have free will, but abandon it on grounds that it conflicts with certain of our scientific beliefs.  Or we might abandon the latter on the grounds that they conflict with our belief in free will.  Which direction we take depends on what?   
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
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