[MD] Why are things called patterns?

[Ian Glendinning]

Andre - I don't get your logic ?

The quote you snipped concerned Pirsig's words quoted by Dave about SQ
patterns being discrete whilst being of the the same stuff. I was just
prompted by Horse's attempt to elucidate Marsha's response to the
original topic David's "rhetorical " question to Mark. Just joining up
a few dots in the thread.

What Marsha says is actually true and supported David's point to Mark
- as to why patterns are key to MoQ, and not just some random
arbitrary choice of words for obscurantist reasons.

Why Marsha continually points these truths out at every turn - I'm at
as much of a loss as you, I think Horse was trying to ask her - ie I
agree that if that's where the argument ends, we've got nowhere.
Marsha seem to prefer that state - and many of us - trying to find
pragmatic conclusions to act upon in the messy real world - get wound
up by that it seems.

Ian

On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 9:59 AM, Andre <andrebroersen at gmail.com> wrote:
> Ian (in seeming defense of Marsha):
>
>
> I think the "not" exclusive and "almost" independent are important
> qualifiers. The patterns are discrete, without simple one-way causal
> dependency - each has a life if its own - but they do comprise the same
> indefinable quality stuff.
>
> Andre:
> Yes Ian, and what you say is correct. We all know that. It is old hat. Thing
> is that some patterns have a tendency to persist longer (over time) than
> others. The pattern "mountain" persists longer than the pattern "car" or the
> pattern "dog" or any other (higher) social or intellectual pattern.
>
> We all hope, I presume, that the intellectual pattern called "MOQ" will
> persist for a very long time. On the AHP tapes Pirsig said he wrote LILA to
> last a thousand years. But the indiscriminate application of static patterns
> being 'ever changing' hollows out (for want of a better expression) the
> application of the MOQ and , for that matter the implications of the MOQ.
>
> It dismisses any suggestion, any attempt at discussion, any idea presented,
> as mere opinion, as having no basis of any validity or quality BECAUSE (so
> Marsha's argument/defense/dismissal goes) all is grounded in emptiness.
>
> Well, we know all that. And yes, we will all be equal in the end. What I
> hear then is: so why bother? Why doing your best? Riding sq patterns in an
> attempt at betterness is utter folly. You are kidding yourself BECAUSE they
> are illusory. They don't really exist in the way you think they exist
> because before you blink they have changed again!
>
> Because of this, Marsha fails to explain herself other than appealing to the
> ever changing, illusory nature (contradiction in terms...[is the illusion
> ever changing as well?])of what she experiences in her vipassana exploits.
> Her other contributions to this forum remain youtube, quotes about Buddhism
> and "I-answer-your-questions-with-my-questions".
>
> I think dmb is right when he says that, adopting this stance you have no
> position on Pirsig's MOQ. In fact you have no position on anything! This is
> destructive. I think she is carrying this DQ part through to an extreme. As
> Pirsig says, DQ has no holding power on its own. You need to latch otherwise
> your gains will be lost, they will slide back to a lower level. Marsha
> denies the latching by denying rightful status of sq patterns. This is
> nihilistic. Doesn't 'get' you anywhere because there is nowhere you come
> from and nowhere to go.
>
> In other words, all the advances and achievements
> (intellectual/consciousness) made mean absolutely nothing. Not realizing
> that sq advances have led, for example to an MOQ in the first place. Dismiss
> sq (they are only conventional and pragmatically useful) but keep on
> stressing that they are illusory and any meaningful discussion is out the
> window.
>
> Is this what you defend and support as well?
>
>
>
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