[MD] Contradiction and incoherence.

Wed Mar 21 19:51:28 PDT 2012

David,
Why don't you agree with Pirsig?  Isn't this a little self centered on your part.  At least Tuukka is looking for the Good.  This seems to be sorely missing from your posts which are only critical.  Try saying something good about those in the forum.

Sent laboriously from an iPhone,
Mark

On Mar 21, 2012, at 3:06 PM, david buchanan <dmbuchanan at hotmail.com> wrote:

> 
> Tuukka said to dmb:
> ...Joe is old and might "express concepts all over the place" like he said, but I have had a warm feeling from reading his messages. And we are -being- here, in this mailing list. Not only exchanging thoughts, but also, living a portion of our lives here. So if someone makes me feel good, I remember it and take it as a good thing.
> 
> dmb says:
> I think that is not only profoundly self-centered and self-indulgent, it's also a kind of degeneracy wherein higher (intellectual and artistic) values are sacrificed for the sake of lower (social and egotistical) values. It's selfish, small-minded and sleazy.
> 
> Tuukka also said:
> Why don't you focus on my work? Are you just being a bully or are you trying to "purify" the MOQ from potential adulterants? In the latter case, my work is of much more concern to you.
> 
> dmb says:
> Agreement with Pirsig is not required, like I already said, but it simply isn't possible to agree, disagree, improve, alter, illuminate ANYTHING until you understand it first. I sincerely wish there was competent disagreement around here. That sort of thing can be very educational. My complaint are not about the lack of conformity. It's about the lack of quality in thought and speech. It's about getting rid of incoherent drivel, not alternative views.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> 21.3.2012 23:38, david buchanan kirjoitti:
>>> Marsha said to dmb:
>>>  Static quality is not other than Dynamic Quality, Dynamic Quality is not other than static quality?  You might say two sides of a coin called Quality.   And according to the dictionary 'quality' isn't defined as being either Dynamic or static.
>>> 
>>> dmb says:
>>> Huh? You're conflating two different complaints. 1.) Your views contradict Pirsig's texts. 2.) Your sentences contradict the english language. By conflating them, you end up thinking that it makes sense to point out that the dictionary does not define words according to Pirsig's MOQ. It doesn't make any sense because nobody thinks that Pirsig controls the english language. His main game is excellence in thought and speech and most would agree that he uses the english language to great effect. But the fact that you misconstrue his ideas AND use the language so badly at the same time does not mean they are one and the same.
>>> 
>>> And this is just more proof that you need to get a different hobby. You're bad at it and you cheat too.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Mar 21, 2012, at 3:39 PM, david buchanan<dmbuchanan at hotmail.com>  wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Here is a fairly clean and simple example of Marsha's inability (or unwillingness) to comprehend the MOQ's basic structure.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Andre said Marsha:So there are four arguments here that you (continually) use and which are CONTRARY to Pirsig's MOQ:1) the intellectual level = SOM  2) DQ=sq  3) sq is 'everchanging...'  4) The MOQ=Experience.
>>>>> 
>>>>> dmb says:
>>>>> Marsha responded to Andre's four objections by simply dismissing them, by pretending that they aren't real. I'm quite sure that all four of them fairly represent her positions but I'd like to focus on #3. I think just about everybody has seen that claim many times. I've even objected to the proposition as an abuse of the english language. (According to all the dictionaries "static" and "ever-changing" have opposite meanings so that they could never rightly be equated.)
>>>>> 
>>>>> What makes this even stranger, is that she will post textual evidence that's clearly against her own position on this and claim to agree with this counter-evidence. She will not or cannot see how this quote, for example, works against her claims.
>>>>> 
>>>>> "That’s the whole thing: to obtain static and Dynamic Quality simultaneously. If you don’t have the static patterns of scientific knowledge to build upon you’re back with the cave man. But if you don’t have the freedom to change those patterns you’re blocked from any further growth." (LILA, Chapter 17)
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Where Marsha says static quality is not other than Dynamic Quality, Pirsig says the whole thing is to obtain BOTH. Where Marsha says static quality is ever-changing, Pirsig says we need a stable base of scientific knowledge to build upon. This quote is evidence against claim #2 and #3. Sadly, Marsha is apparently oblivious and completely unmoved by this kind of evidence. It never has any effect.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Her ideas clash with the text like a big, noisy train wreck but she doesn't hear a sound. It's very weird.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
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