[MD] The value of static patterns.

MarshaV valkyr at att.net
Thu Mar 22 21:59:48 PDT 2012 

Hi Mark,

"Changing oneself " does seem a little paradoxical from one that does not accept the conventional notion of a "self".  Who'd be changing, and changing what?  To me that change, while not so easy, is not so complicated.   To me, that change is to know deeply "the way things are".  Not merely 'know intellectually', not merely 'know conceptually', not merely know from what others have said, but to know first hand, to know deeply and to have seen for yourself.  Maybe the result might be, at the very least, to be one less individual polluting reality with ignorance, greed and anger.
 
 
Marsha
  


On Mar 22, 2012, at 6:44 PM, 118 <ununoctiums at gmail.com> wrote:

> Marsha,
> OK, I get it, so you mean finite.  This is of course different from
> the "infinite" of the quote, but who knows if the translation is
> accurate.  If the intent is to provide rhetoric meaning "a lot", then
> we can say that there are conditional codependent arising starting
> from some begining.  The author does state "everything" so this would
> mean very numerable as you say (since there are only so many things).
> When one says "infinite" to a mathematician the quote would mean
> something completely different, that is "independent" of codependent
> arising.  So, as we know the interpretation of the language is very
> important, and I agree with your interpretation here.
> 
> On to my second question:  What do you think is meant by "changing
> oneself"?  Before you give me an answer, I can say that for me this
> would imply an independence from conditional codependent arising.  For
> to change oneself suggests that there is something present which is
> free from the conditional background.  Otherwise it would read as
> "being changed" rather than "changing oneself".  Indeed, if there is a
> "power of man" it would be to be free from the deterministic
> progression of existence.  This would also allow each man a "self"
> which could then be the part of the "everything which affects
> everything", rather than simply being the effect of something before.
> 
> Of course I only have your quote to go on, so I am sure there is
> context within the body of that Nisargadatta work which would explain
> this.  What the author would need to do is qualify the "changing
> oneself" so that it fits within the paradigm of codependent arising,
> if that is his belief.  This author may not be a Buddhist in this
> annihilation of "self" sense (which is only one school of training),
> so perhaps that would answer some questions about the quote as well.
> 
> It is nice to think that our actions make a difference, and that they
> may truly be “our actions” instead of some domino progression.
> 
> Thank you for presenting this quote as a topic for discussion within
> MoQ dialogue.
> Mark
> 
> On 3/22/12, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>> Mark,
>> 
>> I mean very numerable.
>> 
>> 
>> Marsha
>> 
>> On Mar 22, 2012, at 2:37 PM, 118 <ununoctiums at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi Marsha,
>>> Innumerable is pretty much the same thing, to me, so it also depends
>>> on how it is used.  Do you mean "cannot be counted"?  If it cannot be
>>> counted it cannot be defined, and we arrive at DQ which lies outside
>>> cause and effect.  If it can be counted, then a better word would be
>>> "finite".
>>> 
>>> From that quote below, the author speaks of "changing himself".
>>> Logically this form of change occurs outside of cause and effect as
>>> well.  In this way the author is denying codependent arising.  For
>>> "changing oneself" is like Immaculate Conception, something that does
>>> not abide by cause effect logic.
>>> 
>>> Just wondering what your thoughts are on my opinions here.
>>> 
>>> Regards,
>>> Mark
>>> 
>>> On 3/22/12, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Mark,
>>>> 
>>>> It's a quote from Nisargadatta, I would have used the word 'innumerable'.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Marsha
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Mar 22, 2012, at 1:30 PM, 118 <ununoctiums at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Hi Marsha,
>>>>> One must be careful how one uses the term "infinite".  It could suggest
>>>>> that "causes" do not exist.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Sent laboriously from an iPhone,
>>>>> Mark
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Mar 22, 2012, at 12:58 AM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hi David & Mark,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Mar 21, 2012, at 7:46 PM, David Harding <davidjharding at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> David:
>>>>>>>>> So we just need to have a goal of DQ and not sq? So if I just have a
>>>>>>>>> goal of
>>>>>>>>> DQ, then I need not worry about the patterns I am creating?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Mark:
>>>>>>>> Not a goal of DQ, a goal of understanding.  Why do you wish to learn
>>>>>>>> more about MoQ by participating in this forum?  This is a serious
>>>>>>>> question, I just want to understand.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> David:
>>>>>>> Yes, to understand and in the process make myself a better person.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Here's something I like to consider:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> "Causes and results are infinite in number and variety.  Everything
>>>>>> affects everything.  In this universe, when one thing changes,
>>>>>> everything
>>>>>> changes.  Hence the great power of man in changing the world by
>>>>>> changing
>>>>>> himself."
>>>>>> (Nisargadatta Maharaj)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Marsha
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
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