[MD] Contradiction and incoherence.

[118]

Hi Antonio Roberto,

The current fad within this forum by some seems to suggest that sq
definitions are somehow wrong.  In my opinion, definitions are only as
limiting as we allow them to be.  For example, the use of the term
"static patterns" can be limiting or can be seen as enlightening.  The
point is to use the symbols of language and concepts, but not fall
prey to them.  Dogmatic statements place Truth above Quality.

The words used by Pirsig are not as consequential as the images he is
trying to convey.  Therefore, the term "static patterns" which has
been a topic this month, should be considered within the rubric of a
symbol.  Even a "mystical symbol" would be a useful manner in which to
deal with the words that Pirsig presents.

For many the spell of the static can only be broken by "killing all
intellectual patterns".  Many have not taken this advice to heart, and
we get stuck in minutiae.

So, definitions are not limiting as the stairs are not limiting the
staircase which we climb.

Just my opinion, of course.

Cheers,
Mark
On 3/23/12, Antonio Roberto Maestrello <armaestrello at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi guys.
> What do you mean, precisely?
> Is definition limiting?
> Is it right that the day doesn´t change to night, or spring to summer, and
> then autumn and winter?
> There are day and night, spring and summer and autumn and winter.
> Antonio Roberto
>
> 2012/3/23 Jan-Anders Andersson <jananderses at telia.com>
>
>> Hi Marsha
>>
>> I think our Western type of experience has something to tell the guys on
>> the streets of the East with their waterpipes and handmade sitars:
>>
>> http://youtu.be/RVGrsH57Pl0
>>
>> best wishes
>>
>> Jan Anders
>>
>>
>> 21 mar 2012 kl. 22.44 skrev moq_discuss-request at lists.moqtalk.org:
>>
>> > This is supported by Herbert Guenther 204 (1957, p.144) who adds:
>> >
>> > Experience is the central theme of Buddhism, not theoretical postulation
>> and deductive verification. Since no experience occurs more than once and
>> all repeated experiences actually are only analogous occurrences, it
>> follows that a thing or material substance can only be said to be a series
>> of events interpreted as a thing, having no more substantiality than any
>> other series of events we may arbitrarily single out.
>> >
>> > After some thought, I think Guenther?s comment is valid as I can?t think
>> of any events that are repeated exactly. Moreover, like the concept of
>> ?self?, there?s no absolute objective rule to judge when one event starts
>> and another stops. This means that any concept or term is fundamentally
>> indeterminate, imprecise and, as time passes, increasingly less useful.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Mar 21, 2012, at 4:53 PM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> 5.8.4. THE MOQ, DUKKHA AND AVIDYA (IGNORANCE) It?s fairly obvious from
>> reading Pirsig?s texts that SOM is perceived by him as an example of
>> ignorant thinking. Briefly, this is due to such systems ignoring the
>> reality of Dynamic Quality. Why this is particularly ignorant is explained
>> by the ?Three Aspects? of the Cittamatra school of Mahayana Buddhism. 201
>> >>
>> >> Williams (1988, p.83) states that the First Aspect refers to the
>> falsifying activity of language which implies independent and permanent
>> existence to things. As Hagen 202 (1997, p.30) notes, one of the most
>> fundamental truths noted by the Buddha is that all aspects of our
>> experience are in constant flux and change. According to the Buddha, when
>> a
>> person ignores this truth they subject themselves to dukkha.
>> >>
>> >> _Dukkha_ has been notorious in evading exact translation to English.
>> Hagen (1997, p.25) notes that the word is originally derived from a
>> Sanskrit word referring to a wheel out-of-kilter. 203
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Mar 21, 2012, at 4:49 PM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> "Like Pirsig, Nishida follows the thought of Nagarjuna and rejects the
>> SOM ?object logic? conceptualisation of reality. Instead, Nishida uses the
>> more Eastern orientated ?concrete logic? (or ?logic of nothingness?) which
>> perceives reality as holistic and constantly changing; where identities
>> are
>> momentary (and, therefore, always ?negating? themselves). A theme
>> prevalent
>> in Nishida?s ?concrete logic? (as well as the MOQ and much of Buddhist
>> thought), is the recognition of the ?self? as just a useful abstraction."
>> >>>
>> >>>      (MoQ Textbook)
>> >>>
>> >>>
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