[MD] Plato's Good

[118]

Hi Joe,

On Sat, May 12, 2012 at 12:19 PM, Joseph  Maurer <jhmau at comcast.net> wrote:
> Hi Mark,
>
> I don't know if you attach any meaning to parts of speech.  Some words used
> for meaning in this discussion were adjectives.  In ordinary parlance
> "Quality", "Quantity", "good", "true" are adjectives that modify existing
> nouns.
>
> Can the meaning from adjectives like quality, quantity good, true etc., be
> converted metaphysically to nouns which stand alone or is this all
> analogical?

Yes, as far as I can tell, words are meant to convey meaning from one
person to another.  They are similar to a gift conveying friendship.
You are asking me about grammar, and there are real writers who
contribute to this forum.  According to ZAMM, Quality was used as a
noun when Phaedrus was asked "Are you teaching Quality?".  Since
Quality is not often used as a proper noun, this set the wheels in
motion around this word.  Of course the wheels were already in motion,
but sometimes it takes a catalyst for them to actually get somewhere,
disastrous as it may end up being, temporarily.

In my opinion, the word Quality (as it is used in MoQ) has everything
to do with quality.  If you think about it, all we sense are the
qualities of other things.  In fact things exude qualities.  We are
filled in a world in which the qualities we sense are our only manner
of interaction.  It therefore makes perfect sense to call this a world
of Quality.  In other traditions this is replaced for "the world of
appearances", this is also known as Maya.  So, the world of Quality
and Maya can be connected in this way.

It seems to me that this term analogic has been way over used by now.
It can mean anything from denoting a mirage, to approximation, to a
finger pointing.  I prefer not to go there again, as the word has lost
its meaning.  In MoQ, Quality is treated as a reality.  Therefore,
this word actually stands for something and is not used as a
replacement.  It stands for that idea in your head.
>
> It is very difficult for me to handle the switch from adjective to noun when
> modifying the meaning of existing reality helter-skelter like for evolution.
> I accept that this is the prerogative of metaphysics.

Adjectives as nouns is not uncommon.  Basically the property of
something is taken on its own as a representation.  We speak of an
evil man, and we also speak generally of Evil.  But evil cannot exist
unless something is evil.  In these cases, such a word is used as a
correlative noun.  That is, a noun which represents a property of
something.
>
> The meaning of adjectives given nominal reality masks their own dependence
> on reality for existence.   Modifying existence in creating nouns from
> adjectives is exciting.

Even when we are pointing at, or describing something, like a tree,
all we can describe are its qualities.  This is what Plato is speaking
of in terms of Form.  The Form of the tree lies behind its qualities.
We cannot know the true Form of the tree.  At least that is how I
understand it, but I am no Plato expert.  I find it exciting when I
can see something from a completely different perspective.  Perhaps
that is what you mean.
>
> Evolution embodies "Quality" in a hierarchy of analogous forms.  I am
> willing to discard meaning of parts of speech like substance, quantity,
> quality, etc.  Indeed, this is a proper subject for metaphysics.

For me, all words are meant to convey meaning.  The words themselves
have no magical meaning, it is what the speaker intends for them to
mean that does.  This is why the spoken word is so much more powerful
than the written word.  Intonation and stress and cadence etc, all
provide meaning to a word when spoken.  I find that listening to a
book read by a good actor is much more revealing than just simply
reading the same book.  The point is, that words do not inherently
contain meaning.  Just look at a book in a foreign language and you
will see what words are.  While reading The reader brings words to
life, each in their own way; this means that we are active in creating
meaning as we read, it is not simply infused into us by the words.. I
am sure that much of what I write is meaningless to most.  But I am
also sure that every now and again what I write has meaning associated
with it by the reader.

Analogous forms is a good term.  All manifestations of the same thing.

Cheers,
Mark

>
>
> On 5/11/12 10:39 PM, "118" <ununoctiums at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> When you say "handle DQ", I am not sure what you mean.  DQ is a
>> concept, it is something that Pirsig made up.  It is used for the
>> explanation of Quality.   Quality is a manner of viewing reality.  It
>> does not exist outside of that.
>
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