[MD] Plato's Good

[118]

Hi Andre,
You are correct, and I misspoke about
The "concept".  What I meant to say was that for the purposes of discussion, Pirsig creates two "states".  On he calls SQ, and the other he calls DQ.  This is necessary in order to present a metaphysics.

I fully agree that we can distinguish one from the other as one being concept and the other one not.  However, we can only form this distinction conceptually within a metaphysics.  That is what I meant.  We cannot discuss it any other way.

Sent laboriously from an iPhone,
Mark

On May 12, 2012, at 1:21 PM, Andre Broersen <andrebroersen at gmail.com> wrote:

> Mark to Joe:
> 
> DQ is a concept, it is something that Pirsig made up.
> 
> At least that is how I see it, today.  But maybe Andre will present a different way of explaining this.
> 
> Andre:
> It is because of this last sentence that I respond Mark. And, yes, I have a 'different way of explaining this'. DQ is NOT a concept. Pirsig is very clear about this:
> 'It's important to keep all 'concepts' out of Dynamic Quality. Concepts are always static. Once they get into Dynamic Quality they'll overrun it and try to present it as some kind of concept itself'.
> (Anthony's PhD).
> 
> And this is what you are doing Mark. You are making a concept out of DQ and that ain't good. It leads to a static dead end...Plato's Good. It is only meant as a referring term. A finger poining... .

My apologies for the misunderstanding.  Plato's Good is also a finger pointing since it refers to the pre conceptual in my opinion.
> 
> Just to suggest some more: Pirsig did NOT make DQ up. It is one thing in which he most certainly was NOT 'original'. The 'idea' of Quality has been with us since time immemorial...under very different names but nevertheless... . The oldest idea known to Mankind, Pirsig said somewhere. That is why the MOQ is part of the perennial philosophy.

Pirsig made up the term DQ in order to explain Quality.  I agree with the perennial part which is why I bring in so many other explanations for it from up to 5,000 years ago.
> 
> The term 'Quality' is used because no Western scientist, anthropologist, psychiatrist, psychologist, politician, economist, philosopher, biologist, physicist...you name it... can get around that one or deny that it exists. This is the powerfull confrontation (and attempted solution) the MoQ places upon every existing Western theorizing about... well...the above mentioned disciplines and almost everything else.

Yes, this could be true if it is explained properly.  Without such explanation, it is easy to say it does not exist, and simply the ravings of a madman.  MoQ is child's play compared to other perennial philosophies in terms of detail, but it is a beginning.  This forum is meant to further discuss MoQ.
> 
> Mark:
> We can certainly imagine that there is stuff out there which we cannot know, but how would we know?  It is like seeing that thing that you will never see.
> 
> Andre:
> You are saying this in relation to 'Quality' Mark. No doubt you are aware of the two different understandings the English word 'knowing' has in some other languages. The German one (which Pirsig uses as an example) is 'kenntnis' and the other is 'wissenschaft'. In Dutch the two different approaches and understandings are very similar to this German understanding and distinction.
> 
> Pirsig says quite a bit about this difference which is quite important in an 'understanding' ... a 'knowing' of Quality. To illustrate briefly: Pirsig explains the distinction or rather the difference between the two by pointing to the difference between knowing your mother's face (kenntnis) and knowing the history of Mesopotamia (wissenschaft). 'Knowledge' of Quality is kenntnis...you know it ahead of intellectual abstractions.

Yes, and I have said the same many times.  It's all in the archives.
> 
> That is why every six-year old knows what quality is.
> 
> Cheers.
> 
> 
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