[MD] An Open Letter to the MOQ Discussion Group

[118]

Hi Ron,
Thank you for the quotes. Like I have said, I can be convinced with a
good argument.  My intention is to learn, not to propagandize, I try
to trend towards the argument of highest Quality.  I was formulating a
response to your previous post to me on Parmenides, but I will start
with this one since it is current.

As I have said, I am no scholar of Plato which may be to my advantage
since I can read what he says with a "beginner’s mind" (D.T. Suzuki on
Zen).  That is without all the baggage of static knowledge.  As such,
I try to imagine what Plato was thinking.  It is of course impossible
to sit in the Academy and ask Plato questions within the MoQ
framework.  For example, we could ask Plato if he is making The Good a
form of Static Quality.  I am sure he would understand the philosophy
within MoQ, and my guess is that he would say that he is not making
The Good a static quality.  I believe he would say that he is pointing
beyond the static.  But of course we will never know.

Everything we discuss must be objectivized (such as The Good and
Quality) for the purposes of presentation only.  This does not mean
that they are static objects, but only that we use such objects as a
mode for transferring our awareness.

On 5/13/12, X Acto <xacto at rocketmail.com> wrote:
> Mark:
>
> Ant, tell me what the problem with Plato was.  His "Good"
> is the same thing as Pirsig's Quality.
>
> Ant replied:
>
> Not according to Pirsig they're not.  I don't know whether you really
> believe this statement of yours or just haven't read the material in
> question but (to paraphrase) Pirsig states that his Quality
> is fundamentally Dynamic and indefinable while Plato's Good is a
> static Form that (supposedly) can be defined.  Plato's "Republic"
> refers to the Good in a couple of places and what he says here does
> tend to support Pirsig's view.  In my honest opinion.
>
> Plato:
> Socrates to Glaucon on the good of education in "republic vii" 508c "Let's say, then, that this is what I call the offspring of the good, which the good begot as its analogue. What the good itself is in the intelligible realm, in relation to understanding and intelligible things, the sun is in the visible realm in relation to sight and visible things."

> 508d
> "Well, understand the soul in the same way: When it focuses on something illuminated by truth and what is, it understands, knows, and apparently possesses understanding, but when it focuses on what is mixed with obscurity, on what comes to be and passes away it opines and is dimmed, changes its opinion this way and that, and seems bereft of  understanding."

Mark's comment:
If I were to frame this in MoQ parlance, The Good is more like DQ
which gives rise to the good in the intelligable realm (SQ).  The part
about the soul is self explanatory, this is the "knowing" which lies
beyond understanding.  We know what Quality is, and can tell and this
does not change in essense.  If we focus on things that are "supposed"
to have Quality we will always be changing our opinion.

The next one I will have to insert [comments] into the quote.
>
508e
"So that what gives truth to the things known and the power to know to
the knower is the form of the good. [This could be construed as
Quality; we are formed of Quality And we can know Quality]  And though
it is the cause of knowledge and truth, it is also an object (or aim?)
of knowledge. Both knowledge and truth are beautiful things, but the
good  is other and more beautiful than they. [Quality can also be seen
as the cause of knowledge, in my opinion, since Quality comes before
all else.  What comes after are manifestations of Quality in a Moral
setting.  Beauty lies in a unifying principle.]  In the visible realm,
light and sight are considered sun-like, but it is wrong to think they
are the sun, so, here, it is right to think of knowledge and truth as
good-like but wrong to think that either of them is the good-for the
good is yet more prized. [This can also be applied to Quality, in my
opinion.  We can think of Static Quality (light and sun) as
"Quality-like", but it would be wrong to consider SQ as the complete
Quality, for Quality is more than SQ (it is more "prized)]"
>
> 517b
> "But this is how I see it: In the knowable realm, the form of the good is the last thing to be seen, and it is reached only with difficulty. Once one has seen it, however, one must conclude that it is the cause of all that is correct and beautiful in anything, that it produces both light and its source in the visible realm, and understanding, so that anyone who is to act sensibly in private or in public must see it."

Mark's comment:
In MoQ parlance I would translate the above as follows.  We have
difficulty approaching an understanding of Quality through knowledge,
however it is possible.  However, once we "get it" we can see that it
manifests the moral fabric ("correct and beautiful") of all.  Quality
creates both the sun and sunlight and our ability to see these.  If we
are in tune with MoQ then it makes perfect sense.
>
> 519d
> "It is our task as founders, then, to compel the best natures to reach the study we said before is the most important , namely to make the ascent and see the good.  But when they've made it they mustn't be allowed to do what they're allowed to do today. to stay there and refuse to go down to the prisoners in the cave and share in their labors and honors, whether they are of less worth or of  greater."

Yes, it is our task as ones who are tuned to MoQ to work together with
our best natures towards the importance of MoQ; to walk the high
country and "see" Quality.  Once one has a full understanding, it is
our duty to carry the message to those who are unsatisfied with the
current illusion of the West, and work with those in the cave
regardless of what we think of them.  Resentments and Quality do not
mix.

There it is, my reply.  I welcome any comments in good faith.

Regards,
Mark
>
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