[MD] Creative Freedom in Jazz

[David Harding]

Hi Dan,

>> David H:
>> So to be clear, are you suggesting there is no such thing as enlightenment?
>
> Dan:
> I should think it depends on one's point of view.

So it's relative?

>
> David H:
> Is enlightenment a mirage? Just a mistaken belief?
>
> Dan:
> To believe in something is to have confidence in it without empirical
> proof. I have to wonder though... how does one go about proving the
> existence of enlightenment?

Not by words.  One can however describe how to experience it. A finger
points to the moon..

>
> David H:
> I think enlightenment (or perfection) (or Dynamic Quality) does exist
> and is not merely a mistaken belief.  But there is more to life than
> just Dynamic Quality.  This is what the MOQ says and this is where it
> differs from Zen Buddhism.
>
> Dan:
> We know Dynamic Quality by what it is not... would you agree?

Yes. Intellectually we do. But we also 'know' it by experience -
before these words capture it and thus point out what it is not.

>> David H:
>> Well, not as much disagreement here (relative to the amount of time I put off responding) as I was expecting Dan.  The only point of contention in this post was whether you think enlightenment exists or is just a mistaken belief..
>
> Dan:
> If a person believes in enlightenment I would say good for them.
> Personally, I do not share that belief. But I would not go so far as
> to say it is a mistaken belief. It is like those people who profess to
> having a belief in God... I am not about to discount such beliefs
> though I do not share it.

I too think that enlightenment isn't something you believe in, but I
do think that it is something you experience.

> On the other hand, I know what I know but I have no way of sharing
> that knowledge other than through my interpretation of analogies like
> the gate-less gate. That analogy suggests (to me) that for those who
> know there is no enlightenment... so what is it that the seekers seek
> if not themselves?

I think the gateless gate analogy is about the moment of enlightenment
itself. It's that moment when you realize that the thing which you've
been striving for was there all along.

-David