[MD] discussing Pirsig's MoQ

[Andre Broersen]

Dear MoQ'ers,

I have created this new thread simply to vent some of my frustrations 
and I hope that Horse will forgive my language that I am going to use 
sometimes.

This discuss is becoming de-motivating to me. Here I was, in the early 
days (for me around 2008) hoping to talk about Pirsig's MoQ. Then, from 
post one, I was confronted/met/welcomed by Bodvar who suggested that 
Pirsig was all wrong about his own metaphysics. This...with a little 
help from my frinds, I survived. Platt, with his reasoning which 
bordered on fascism) and Bodvar are off this discuss...thank goodness 
but there are a few left whom I really wish will follow these 
aforementioned two.

We have all been invited to a very special space called the MoQ. I 
really think this is a priviledged space to be in. I, until some years 
back had an inkling of such a space but had no idea how to 'get' there 
(intellectually) nor what to expect once inside. I only had an 
intuition, a strong feeling that, what Pirsig had opened up and had made 
available in a mystic and at the same time tangible, metaphysical way 
somehow resonated with me.

ZMM and LILA were and still are that chamber, that refuge, that opening 
and intellectual power with which to make sense of this world. I really 
do believe that the Quality paradigm, as part of the perennial 
philosophy will improve this world. But some things are hard to break. A 
SOM perspective for sure. And there  a few on this discuss that do 
nothing else but undermine, de-construct and absolutely nullify what 
Pirsig has tried, over a period of 15 years to create...simply because 
it does not match their own, as they term it 'experience'.

Sad really. Lets name some names (but remember these are static patterns 
of quality they 'personify', same as Lila at the biological level and 
Rigel at the social level).

First comes to mind is Marsha. She has been invited to this space Pirsig 
has created and she does nothing else but critisize it and attempts to 
break it down. She holds the space (Pirsig's MoQ) as 
questionable/hypothetical/doubtful and 'mere opinion'.

The space she has voluntarily entered, she ramms down,severely 
criticises and even has the audacity to question the validity of, is 
hereby continually under siege. Can you imagine that? If I understand 
the literature clearly she is representing the post-modernist, 
deconstructionist philosophy ( a lethal device already severely 
criticised).
Dmb and myself have been trying to point out that this is a space you 
can enter via a certain skillful manipulation of symbols (as Pirsig 
defines the intellectual level) yet Marsha apparently lacks the skills 
as well as the manipulation and most certainly has the symbols all 
wrong. As with Joe and Mark and a few others who occassionally appear on 
this list.

I really do not know how many people are lurking but I do know that, if 
I were interested in discussing Pirsig's MoQ...you know, simply asking 
questions about fragments from ZMM and/or LILA for clarification, I 
would think that this is NOT the place to ask. Posters like Marsh and 
Mark and Joe, and Michael, and John and Ham... holy macaronies...what 
hope do they have to get something useful i.e. quality inspired.

I feel that participating in this discuss we (all of the participants) 
have an obligation to honour, respect and further/build on, Pirsig's 
space he has created for all of us. This does not mean following dogma, 
this does not mean adhering to 'Pirsig's word'. Nothing wrong with 
attempting to place our own bit of furniture or painting or frying 
utensil into this space BUT!! I reject those that are trying (the 
Marsha's, the Mark's , the Joe's ( sorry mate), the John's, the Ham's) 
to reconstruct the space itself! That is what pisses me off about the 
current level of discussion on this discuss.

I find it highly demotivating and am seriously contemplating unsubscribing.

All those who think that E=MC2 is anything other than an intellectual 
pattern of value (regardless of whether Pirsig thinks so or Andre), all 
those who think that fascism grew out of socialism, all those who think 
that do/re/mi/fa/sol/ is the be all and end all of the universe...please 
go away. You have made this place a 'den of thieves'. You are, what in 
lovely english is termed 'gatebashers'.

I hereby devote my deep respect for R.M. Pirsig. He is way ahead of his 
time. Pity so few of us understand the finger he is raising...for too 
many do not see, feel, hear or know whereto.

Peace.