[MD] kill all intellectual patterns

[Joseph Maurer]

Hi,

I am confused!  Two is not one!

Joe


On 11/21/12 11:19 AM, "118" <ununoctiums at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi dmb, Marsha
> 
> I would propose that there is only one Truth.  The pragmatists have relegated
> truths to usefulness which convert the basic meaning of truth to something
> else.  I have presented the self/serving aspect of pragmatists in a previous
> post.
> 
> When dmb requests an appropriate reading of Pirsig, he is pointing towards
> interpretation.  What often happens with any fundamental presentation of
> Reality is the high jacking of such interpretation into dogma.  This is the
> danger I see with dmb's pronouncements.  It would seem that he regards himself
> as the True interpreter of Pisig's writings.  This same thing happened with
> Christianity where people had to go to priests in order to understand the
> "true message".
> 
> By its very teachings, MoQ is anti-dogmatic.  The complete subjugation of
> MoQ's intent into the realm of SQ, which seems to be dmb's intent with his
> constant use of biblical quotes is not only counterproductive in a discussion
> forum, but dangerous to MoQ.
> 
> Dmb represents the academic arm of MoQ.  His pronouncements should be viewed
> in terms of such SQ.  what he is lacking is the dynamic aspect of what Pirsig
> presents.  I am glad that Marsha takes the time to bring balance to the
> discussion of Quality.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Mark
> 
> On Nov 21, 2012, at 8:59 AM, david buchanan <dmbuchanan at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> 
>> dmb said:
>> That's the meaning of "truth" in the MOQ. "Truth is a static intellectual
>> pattern within a larger entity called Quality."
>> 
>> Marsha replied:
>> Sure, 'truth' is _a_ (one among many) intellectual static pattern of value.
>> A few definitions can be found in the dictionary.   And?
>> 
>> dmb says:
>> What? You think truth is singular? You think there is only one truth? That's
>> absurd. Nobody has ever believed such a silly thing and for pragmatists like
>> Pirsig there are many truths, all of which are provisional and invented - as
>> opposed to eternal and discovered.
>> 
>> 
>> dmb said previously:
>> There is nothing logically contradictory about having an experience while
>> thinking at the same time. The idea here is to get them both working
>> TOGETHER. And doing that means putting them in their proper relation, knowing
>> which is which.
>> 
>> 
>> Marsha replied:
>> They aren't really things to be working together.
>> 
>> 
>> dmb says:
>> What!? Okay now you're just contradicting yourself. Earlier you said, "Hasn't
>> RMP stated that the ideal is to experience the Dynamic point-of-view
>> simultaneously with the static point-of-view?"
>> 
>> You want to see the textual evidence on this? We really don't have to guess
>> what Pirsig says on this point. If you'd just stop ignoring the evidence you
>> might have a chance to understand the most basic distinction in the MOQ. If
>> you did stop being so willfully ignorant, my brain would have a heart attack.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> "That's the whole thing: to obtain static AND Dynamic Quality
>> SIMULTANEOUSLY."
>> The whole trick is to "create a stable static situation where Dynamic Quality
>> can flourish". 
>> "In the past Pheadrus' own radical bias caused him to think of Dynamic
>> Quality alone and neglect static patterns of quality. Until now he had always
>> felt that these static patterns were dead. They have no love. They offer no
>> promise of anything. To succumb to them is to succumb to death, since that
>> which does not change cannot live. But now he was beginning to see that this
>> radical bias weakened his own case. Life cannot exist on Dynamic Quality
>> alone. It has no staying power. To cling to Dynamic Quality is to cling to
>> chaos. He saw that much can be learned about Dynamic Quality by studying what
>> it is not rather that futilely trying to define what it is... Slowly at
>> first, and then with increasing awareness that he was going in a right
>> direction, Phaedrus' central attention turned away from any further
>> explanation of Dynamic Quality and turned to the static patterns themselves."
>> "Although Dynamic Quality, the Quality of freedom, creates this world in
>> which we live, these patterns of static quality, the quality of order,
>> preserve our world. Neither static nor Dynamic Quality can survive without
>> the other."
>> "They don't tell him to shatter those static patterns...   ...you don't free
>> yourself from static patterns by fighting them with other contrary static
>> patterns, that is called bad Karma chasing its tail. You free yourself from
>> static patterns by putting them to sleep. That is you master them... There at
>> the center of the most monotonous boredom of static ritualistic patterns, the
>> dynamic freedom is found."
>> 
>> THE PROBLEM - "Our current modes of rationality   ...the whole structure of
>> reason, handed down to us from ancient times, is no longer adequate. It
>> begins to be seen for what it really is...emotionally hollow, esthetically
>> meaningless and spiritually empty."  The problem is that "Reason and Quality
>> had become separated and in conflict with each other" back in the days of
>> Plato.
>> THE SOLUTION - "He felt that the solution started with a new philosophy, or
>> he saw it as even broader than that...a new spiritual rationality...in
>> which... Reason was no longer to be "value free." Reason was to be
>> subordinate, logically, to Quality."
>> "...I'm trying to say is that the solution to the problem isn't that you
>> abandon rationality but that you expand the nature of rationality so that
>> it's capable of coming up with a solution."
>> "Now I want to show that that classic pattern of rationality can be
>> tremendously improved, expanded and made far more effective through the
>> formal recognition of Quality in its operation."
>> "That was exactly what is meant by the Metaphysics of Quality. Truth is a
>> static intellectual pattern within a larger entity called Quality."
>> "I think that it will be found that a formal acknowledgment of the role of
>> Quality in the scientific process doesn't destroy the empirical vision at
>> all. It expands it, strengthens it and brings it far closer to actual
>> scientific practice."
>> The MOQ "says that Dynamic Quality [is] the value-force that chooses an
>> elegant mathematical solution to a laborious one, or a brilliant experiment
>> over a confusing, inconclusive one" and "Dynamic value is an integral part of
>> science. It is the cutting edge of science itself."
>> "A motorcycle functions entirely in accordance with the laws of reason, and a
>> study of the art of motorcycle maintenance is really a miniature study of the
>> art of rationality itself."
>> "It seems as though a society [or a philosophy discussion group] that is
>> intolerant of all forms of degeneracy shuts off its own Dynamic growth and
>> becomes static. But a society that tolerate all forms of degeneracy
>> degenerates. Either direction can be dangerous."
>> 
>> 
>> Marsha said:
>> I agree this RMP quote [killing intellect] and I explained why.  And my
>> explanation didn't look anything like the literalist twist that you spin it
>> through.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> dmb says:
>> The trick, obviously, is to read Pirsig so that all his quotes agree with
>> each other. The quotes I've supplied do NOT contradict your favorite quote.
>> It only seems to because you're taking it literally and otherwise failing to
>> understand the meaning of it. If your reading were correct, then it would
>> mean that Pirsig has contradicted himself, made opposite claims such that we
>> have to choose one or the other.
>> 
>> What's easier to believe, Marsha? That Pirsig is full of contradictory
>> nonsense or you are failing to understand him. Pirsig's MOQ is just fine. The
>> problem is yours, not Pirsig's or mine or anyone else's.
>> 
>> 
>>                 
>> Moq_Discuss mailing list
>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
>> Archives:
>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> Archives:
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> http://moq.org/md/archives.html