[MD] kill all intellectual patterns

[Horse]

So Mark, please explain, rationally and logically, how one discusses 
something which is no-thing and cannot be defined?

On 28/11/2012 00:25, 118 wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I thought I would join this conversation since I assume it is open to the
> public.  Before you recoil in terror, just listen to what I have to say.  There
> is nothing illogical in what I write.  I am interested in MoQ, not in some
> hate-fest.
>
> On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 6:53 AM, ARLO JAMES BENSINGER JR <ajb102 at psu.edu>
> wrote:
>
> [Horse]
> A good assessment Arlo. Perhaps it's about time that the members of this
> list take back the initiative to express what it is that Pirsig is saying.
>
> [Arlo]
> Agree. I've been somewhat preoccupied with other matters and, to be honest,
> my gumption level for dealing with that sort of trolling nonsense had
> pretty much been completed depleted. FWIW, I've been continuing to scan
> Northrop, albeit at a slower pace, but should be able to provide a digital
> copy of The Meeting of East and West to interested scholars in the near
> future. What would be nice is a collected effort to 'tag' the text to
> relevant or associated points made in Pirsig's writings.
>
>
>
> Mark:
>
> Thanks!  I appreciate your effort.
>
>
> [Horse]
> It does need a concerted effort though - DMB is doing a good job countering
> the arguments of certain members but cannot do it on his own.
>
>
>
> Mark:
>
> Funny, I do not see any countering of my arguments except through the
> pasting of verse.  I have dealt with Christians who aren’t as bad.
>
>
> [Arlo]
> The trouble is (as I think even DMB himself commented) DMB is trying to use
> an intellectual argument against an anti-intellectual position. The trolls
> are not interested in reason, or proof, or logic, or agreement with Pirsig,
> or anything of the sort. They are interested only in attacking the great
> evil of academia and rationality. Mark sees his incoherence not as a
> weakness, but as PROOF that he is operating "on a level above" DMB. The
> very fact that DMB makes citations to Pirsig is PROOF to Mark that his
> uncited, unsupported ramblings about Pirsig are superior. Marsha isn't
> interested in anything Pirsig says that contradicts the old SOLAQI
> nonsense, she is here beat on intellect-as-SOM and academics as SOM-stuck
> preachers.
>
>
>
> Mark:
>
> I am not sure what you mean by PROOF, Arlo, all I read are emotional
> rantings.  What proof do you speak of?  Please explain in a rational manner.
> Or is this simply another typical complaint cluster?
>
>
>
> My arguments are purely rational and logical.  MoQ is a metaphysics of
> Quality.  Therefore the subject matter of such metaphysics is Quality.  DMB
> states that Quality cannot be discussed.  I am not sure what metaphysics he
> is therefore discussing.
>
>
>
> I have shown dmb that the quotes he presents should not be interpreted in
> the way he does.  He has assigned Quality to a simplistic model, and then
> goes on to make pronouncements of society and politics.  Can you not see
> that this is misguided?  Pirsig uses examples to explain Quality.  These
> examples are not meant to be a dictum on the way SQ should be.  DMB
> completely dismisses DQ, again claiming some mystical interpretation that
> is as far away from rationality as it gets.
>
>
>
> If we are to discuss Pirsig's model, the primary focus of such discussion
> should be in its interpretation of Quality.  If members are unwilling to
> discuss this, then they have completely missed the point of Pirsig's
> books.  This is a metaphysics OF Quality, not a metaphysics of SQ.  Science
> already provides that.  Science brings forth the four levels that are
> presented.  Science is metaphysics of the objective which includes the
> intellect, the way in which it is dealt with in MoQ.  What happened to DQ?
>
>
>
> DMB has completely objectified what MoQ teaches.  He has classified
> everything in Aristotelian fashion.  This is exactly what MoQ is against.
> I do not blame dmb since he must take an academic stance on these things.
> However, the Western academic approach is exactly what Phaedrus was
> fighting against.  It is a pity that we have come full circle.
>
>
>
> Go ahead, refute what I say in a rational way.  If you have nothing to say
> that is not complaining then just remain quiet and let some of us discuss
> MoQ in terms of its presentation of Quality.  Do you even know what Quality
> is?!
>
>
> * Side note: it was funny, of course, when following a string of posts
> accusing DMB of weakness and inferiority for providing evidence, quotes and
> citations, to see Pirsig's comments on politics be summarily dismissed as
> weak and inferior because he doesn't provide evidence, quotes and
> citations. I guess the lesson is you only need citations when you challenge
> right-wing orthodoxies (and my guess is they would be dismissed anyway as
> 'biased'), any other time citations just prove stupidity.
>
>
>
> Mark:
>
> Lila was not meant to be a treatise on politics or society.  At the
> beginning of ZAMM he explained that such book was not about Zen, or about
> Motorcycle maintenance.  He should have made the same disclaimer at the
> beginning of Lila.  Pirsig does not have the background to make educated
> statements about these things.  He himself would say as much.  He uses
> these things as analogies to present Quality, and how the paradigm of
> Quality can bring an alternate view to such things.  The question should
> be, is he effective in presenting Quality.  Obviously he was not for many
> in this forum, since they do not see the importance of Quality in MoQ.
>
>
> [Horse]
> I have said that this list should be expressly about Pirsig's MoQ and not a
> mish-mash of poorly thought out 'in my opinion' nonsense. Pirsig is the
> best place to go for evidence of how the MoQ works and quotes supporting a
> position.
>
>
>
> Mark:
>
> Horse, I completely agree with you.  Why don't you present something about
> MoQ rather than arbitrarily condemn those of us who do because we do not
> agree with another.  What is a discussion without music?  You are playing a
> marching band.  Zappa would be disappointed.  Try a little jazz.
>
>
> [Arlo]
> I, in no way, meant to imply fault on your end, Horse. In fact, if
> anything, I include your voice to the voices that have been drown out by
> the trolling. I do understand, of course, that its never just that, we all
> have other lives and other endeavors, but its sad that the stronger voices
> here (apart from DMB) are no longer as active.
>
>   Mark:
>
> Ah yes, the complaint by the norm.  Just remember, Phaedrus was a wolf, not
> some academic philosopher trying to fit everything into Western thought.
> Stronger voices?  Is this the marching band you are referring to?  Why are
> there not more people on this forum seeing as how popular ZAMM was?  This
> is because of such voices who have relegated ZAMM (Pirisg's autobiography)
> to some trivial post.  Everything you need to know is in ZAMM.  Lila has
> simply led most astray.
>
>
>
> [Horse]
> Take back the list now or risk losing it to wooly-headed garbage. It's your
> choice.
>
>
>
> Mark:
>
> Yes, I agree.  Let's discuss MoQ, not some political ideal.  Let us discuss
> Quality in metaphysical terms.  How about you Horse?  Have you got any
> contributions?  Do you think MoQ is a good presentation of Quality?  If so,
> Why?
>
>
> [Arlo]
> Agree. I admit to my own part in letting the nonsense get in the way.
>
>
>
> Mark:
>
> If you find it to be nonsense, then provide a rational explanation as to
> why.  All this complaining and victimization that I read in the forum has
> got to stop.  Provide an argument against what I present.  Stop whining,
> this is the real world, not some academy award presentation.
>
>
>
> Best regards and I look forward to a coherent argument.
>
>
>
> Mark, another wolf.
>
>
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-- 

"Without music to decorate it, time is just a bunch of boring production deadlines or dates by which bills must be paid."
— Frank Zappa