[MD] East meets West

[jananderses at telia.com]

1E-9E23-46E0-9E6E-6310ECEB6E77 at telia.com> <ECCC69C1-1DE3-4955-A888-8A517A35E855 at gmail.com>
From: Jan Anders Andersson <jananderses at telia.com>
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Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2012 17:10:10 +0200
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Mark and others

Making an intellectual model of something is just what Metaphysics is about.=
 There is no thing like "my MOQ" Mark. The MOQ comes from the book "Lila, an=
 inquiry into morals" by Robert Pirsig. I wrote a crazy road story based on M=
OQ, how an odd couple could might behave with a MOQ perspective in mind. The=
 result for John, one of the characters in the play, is that he comes to und=
erstand how time, money and sex is related to each other. John experiences s=
ome sort of "balance" in three dimensions, energy, form and value. The cause=
 of this balance is the same as Quality, (the undefinable number 43). The ba=
lancing act is the forever and permanently infinite and unfinished issue of d=
efining Quality, the result of which is Dynamic and Static Quality. The worl=
d as we know it so far is a good try to understand Quality so far. Therefore=
 you can't never find the ultimate definition of Quality because that would b=
e the end of time and the end of the world, the end of "The Big Note".

Understanding Quality, as you say is your main cause of being here on this f=
orum, is the way of finding the "balance of Excellence"; the balance between=
 energy, form and value. Any unbalance is the cause behind the next moment o=
f action. Betterness is always at hand. (But there is no guarantee that it w=
ill be better.)

1. If someone reads your contribution and thinks "it's too many words", then=
 it have an energy-amount unbalancing problem with the rhetoric quality.
2. If someone read it and think "it's impossible to read because it's so man=
y words in French", then it is something about the Form of the message, not a=
bout the number of words as in example 1.
3. If someone reads the same text as in exmpl 1 and 2 but think "I understan=
d this text quite good but this is not something I am going to use when I am=
 practicing on my motorcycle", then you might have been writing for the wron=
g person, someone that sees no Value in your text.

If someone read your text and think "This is a good text" then you might jus=
t have wrote something smart with a few words that someone finds useful for s=
ome reason. If the reader call it useful because it solves some problem in t=
he right way it might be called an intellectual truth that saturates his exp=
ectations so far. If the text just makes him laugh, it could be considered t=
o satisfy his momentary need for pleasure and relax from too much seriousnes=
s in the world. Something doesn't have to be perfect, balance is mostly just=
 about better than worse. If the text makes him sexually aroused then it hit=
s the biological need for information, even though it could be a grey lie.

There is another discussion here going on right now which is a good example o=
f misunderstanding the difference between Energy, Form and Value called "a Z=
en Truth". They are mixing up and crosstalking to each other if something ex=
ist, (energy), misreading Form to be Value and vice versa. Form can be objec=
tively measured but the Value is always different to anybody, because we as s=
ubjects are always different (ultimately undefined) from each other and alwa=
ys see a different value on something with a form in common.

As an example, we have a couple of tomatoes, there are four tomatoes, we can=
 prove that they objectively exist, we can weigh and count them, (if there a=
re no tomatoes we cannot count them or throw them in someone's face; "Tomato=
 ergo sum" :-)...)
We can discuss and agree that they are objectively more round than flat, mos=
tly red and not blue. Finally we can take two of them each and eat them or j=
ust do what we feel. The taste of your tomatoes to you and the taste of mine=
, our experience from these four tomatoes will always be a personal evaluati=
on.

You see? If you doesn't understand the difference between energy, form and v=
alue, you will get trapped in a maze from there is no way out but madness.

If we return to the MOQ, which is a four-level perspective on Cosmological e=
volution, we can see that a balance in the three dimensions are present at a=
ny level and the lowest common denominator is time:
At the inorganic level we know pretty well that Every kind of physical exist=
ing matter is a result of an energy acting with good timing. Bad timing resu=
lts in chaos and radioactive decay until another stabile pattern arises.
At the organic level we know all the kind of examples of surviving strategie=
s that leads to either succes or extinction for species.
At the social level money, love and warfare are some of the most important i=
ngredients for success, but saved time is for ever present.
At the intellectual level the most timesaving concept and formula is called t=
rue and best. "Eternal truths" are regarded as very good patterns with a lon=
g-life guarantee, however questioned by Buddhists and other artists...

It is hard to intellectually handle all this but we have inside us, since eo=
ns of evolution, a sensory system called the emotional system. This emotion s=
ystem is serving us with different kind of signals that tells us if it somet=
hing about energy, form or value. By understanding intellectually how this r=
eally works, it is more easy to understand the signal system that we already=
 have at hand.

Goodness, betterness, quality and stupid behaviour is just not something int=
ellectual, is is also something of practical matter.

You maybe have to reread MALC again...=20
but if you have it as ebook, you can always search up and bookmark the more i=
nteresting parts.

Jan Anders


6 okt 2012 kl. 23:23 skrev 118 <ununoctiums at gmail.com>:

> Hi JA,
> This is a good question.  I was defining it as Aristotle did, that is, bey=
ond physics.  Your MoQ seems pure physics to me.  I am sure I am wrong.  I d=
on't place much importance in thermodynamics.  You work scientifically with y=
our defined variables and form equations.  What do you do with those things t=
hat are not variables?  Such as "existence" for example.  How does your MoQ d=
escribe personal existence?
>=20
> Metaphysics is more than simply providing a model as you have.  Don't you t=
hink?  What about Quality?  How does that fit in to your view?
>=20
> Cheers,
>=20
>=20
> Mark
>=20
> On Oct 6, 2012, at 12:17 AM, Jan Anders Andersson <jananderses at telia.com> w=
rote:
>=20
>> 45-A43A-4CDF-AFB9-EF6AB7DCFD9D at telia.com> <1D79B970-4F8C-4CEA-BB51-4905F6=
7327C1 at gmail.com>
>> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084)
>>=20
>> High Mark
>>=20
>> You seem to be a funny guy.
>>=20
>> How do you define Metaphysic?
>>=20
>> Jan Anders
>>=20
>>=20
>> 5 okt 2012 kl. 23.24 skrev 118:
>>=20
>>> Hi JA,
>>> Certainly thermodynamics is an accepted scientific method for the presen=
tation of "what is".  As a physical biochemist I am aware of its shortcoming=
s.  It is a self contained system that is based on definitions.
>>>=20
>>> However, if it helps you to explain a Quality approach to perceiving rea=
lity, more power to you.  I am working beyond thermodynamics in the area of m=
etaphysics.  Such interpretation goes beyond the equations you are fond of.
>>>=20
>>> Kind regards,
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Mark
>>>=20
>>> On Oct 5, 2012, at 2:35 AM, Jan Anders Andersson <jananderses at telia.com>=
 wrote:
>>>=20
>>>> m4ite7=3D+nN8gO_fWQ0v2YmGtrnCmRDVi=3Dt4pecPJRvKWg at mail.gmail.com> <ADD4=
B706-379B-4512-8DB9-F45881F92EAA at telia.com> <CAP2xam6OLqeVDm_f=3DTOY_zTUK8vD=
aXTeF4b8SRh1QWR_X=1F1A at mail.gmail.com>
>>>> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>>>> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084)
>>>>=20
>>>> Thanks Mark.
>>>>=20
>>>> 4 levels and 3 dimensions of the thermodynamics is enough for me so far=
.
>>>> I have some funny ideas for a sequel but nothing definite yet. I think y=
ou will be surprised anyway.
>>>>=20
>>>> One track takes a lot of math and physics to read first.
>>>>=20
>>>> Don't forget to post a review on iTunes bookstore.
>>>>=20
>>>> May betterness be with you
>>>>=20
>>>> Jan Anders
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> 5 okt 2012 kl. 07.35 skrev 118:
>>>>=20
>>>>> Hi JA,
>>>>> Congratulations!
>>>>> Hope you have a sequel in the works.  Don't wait 20 years and write on=
e
>>>>> just out of necessity!  Remember, beware of fame.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I have been using MoQ for almost 40 years now and am not even aware of=
 it.
>>>>> That is, until I post on this forum to explain how it works.  I hope y=
our
>>>>> wrench is becoming more handy for you.  All it takes is practice, my
>>>>> friend.  You will get the hang of it and forget you are using it too.
>>>>> Leave the instructions behind and let the motorcycle become you.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Mark
>>>>>=20
>>>>> On Wed, Oct 3, 2012 at 6:39 AM, Jan Anders Andersson
>>>>> <jananderses at telia.com>wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>>> m4ite7=3D+nN8gO_fWQ0v2YmGtrnCmRDVi=3Dt4pecPJRvKWg at mail.gmail.com>
>>>>>> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>>>>>> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084)
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Hi Mark
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Today's score: (all these funny names sounds like some weird poetry, n=
ot
>>>>>> to mention the list of the names of the =E2=80=98likers=E2=80=99)
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =C3=96rebro, =C3=96rebro L=C3=A4n
>>>>>> London, England'
>>>>>> San Benigno Canavese, Piemonte
>>>>>> Rohtak, Haryana
>>>>>> Vadodara, Gujarat
>>>>>> New Delhi, Delhi
>>>>>> Norwich, England
>>>>>> Mysore, Karnataka
>>>>>> Mandatoriccio, Calabria
>>>>>> Kohima, Nagaland
>>>>>> Zaragoza, Aragon
>>>>>> Conversano, Puglia
>>>>>> Waterloo, Ontario
>>>>>> Toronto, Ontario
>>>>>> Metz, Lorraine
>>>>>> Moncton, New Brunswick
>>>>>> Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
>>>>>> Gropello Cairoli, Lombardia
>>>>>> Amravati, Maharashtra
>>>>>> Bilaspur, Chhattisgarh
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Seems like East and US is losing ground...
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Keep up the good reading, don't forget to take care of the organic le=
vel
>>>>>> in between.
>>>>>> The world out there is waiting for you using your MOQ wrench.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Jan Anders
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> 3 okt 2012 kl. 05.44 skrev 118:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Hi Jan Anders,
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Thank you for the input on your book.  I must admit I did read your b=
ook
>>>>>>> rather quickly as I do sometimes to get the overall feel of a book s=
uch
>>>>>> as
>>>>>>> this.  I appreciate the time you took to provide more explanation.  I=
 am
>>>>>>> providing some MoQ related comments below, so that you can get an id=
ea
>>>>>>> where I am coming from so far as Quality is concerned.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 8:50 AM, Jan Anders Andersson <
>>>>>> jananderses at telia.com
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> Mark
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> I think you should be interested of what "Money and the Art of Losi=
ng
>>>>>>>> Control" has to do with MOQ as it seems that you want to know more a=
bout
>>>>>>>> Quality. MALC is generally a story about how to USE (or not use:-) t=
he
>>>>>>>> knowledge of MOQ and Quality in our daily ordinary life.  I don't
>>>>>> consider
>>>>>>>> MOQ to be just some mind game. It's an intellectual tool to be used=
.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Mark:
>>>>>>> I believe this is a place where we may differ in terms of Quality.  W=
e
>>>>>> both
>>>>>>> probably agree that MoQ is a metaphysical presentation of what Pirsi=
g
>>>>>> terms
>>>>>>> Quality.  He uses this term with good reason since we all know what
>>>>>> Quality
>>>>>>> is without having to define it.  However, it is my impression that
>>>>>> Quality
>>>>>>> does not fit within the traditional S/O interpretation of reality.  =
For
>>>>>> me,
>>>>>>> Quality is a manner of interpreting reality in a manner which does a=
way
>>>>>>> with subjects and objects.  Therefore, when I think of "using" Quali=
ty, I
>>>>>>> think in terms of interpreting the world as Quality (seeing the worl=
d as
>>>>>>> objectless).  The metaphysics presented in MoQ is one example of how=
 this
>>>>>>> can be done, but the interpretation of existence through a Quality
>>>>>> paradigm
>>>>>>> can be explained in many ways.  While the levels are interesting, th=
ey
>>>>>> are
>>>>>>> not necessary for beginning a journey by Quality.  This should be
>>>>>> obvious,
>>>>>>> since many people knew what Quality was long before Lila was written=
.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> JA:  One of the most basic issues of the MOQ is change. Without cha=
nge
>>>>>>>> there would be no cosmological evolution. Without the possibility o=
f a
>>>>>>>> change there would be no meaning in motorcycle maintenance, getting=

>>>>>> drunk
>>>>>>>> and picking up bar ladies.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Mark:
>>>>>>> As presented, MoQ could encompass change.  It would not be the first=

>>>>>>> metaphysics to do so, since an interpretation through science also b=
rings
>>>>>>> change to the forefront.  So I do not think that Change is a big par=
t of
>>>>>> an
>>>>>>> interpretation through Quality.  I think the main force of such
>>>>>>> interpretation comes from the ability to completely dismiss subjects=
 and
>>>>>>> objects.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> JA:  Change deserves time-space. Time is crucial for the experience=
 of
>>>>>>>> Quality because there is a moment before the experience, under and
>>>>>> after.
>>>>>>>> Every pattern is repeated, from time to time, it is frequently
>>>>>> recurring.
>>>>>>>> Truth is something that we can presume will occur again with great
>>>>>>>> significance. Every time it meets our expectations we will call it t=
rue.
>>>>>>>> =46rom the smallest Higgs-Boson particle to galaxies in the univers=
e we
>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>> see that it is a Way, Pattern or Method, to gain Energy, with its Fo=
rm
>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> with its Value. If something doesn't have a certain amount of Energ=
y, a
>>>>>>>> characteristic Form and an influencing Value, it is not proved to e=
xist
>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>> a real static pattern.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Mark:
>>>>>>> I understand why you bring in traditional scientific paradigms, for t=
hat
>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> what we are brought up with.  However, such examples can lead direct=
ly
>>>>>> away
>>>>>>> from an appreciation of Quality.  For what science does is create ob=
jects
>>>>>>> as its main mode of interpretation of reality.  These objects are ve=
ry
>>>>>>> misleading and can cloud any understanding of awareness through Qual=
ity.
>>>>>>> The more objects and examples one brings in from this scientific
>>>>>>> discipline, the more one is drawn away from Pirsig's Quality, in my
>>>>>> opinion.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> However, I do see what you are trying to do, and i like your example=
s.
>>>>>> We
>>>>>>> make things up like Energy and Patterns, for that is our way
>>>>>>> of interpreting existence in traditional Western ways. That is, we c=
reate
>>>>>>> these things.  That we see there is a Way, it is only because we hav=
e
>>>>>>> created such a Way.  Of course this is important, since it is of gre=
at
>>>>>>> value to make the cosmos personal.  The world we create "out there" i=
s
>>>>>>> actually happening in our heads and is determined by the make up of o=
ur
>>>>>>> bodies.  It is the interaction of that "out there" and our bodies th=
at
>>>>>>> becomes the reality we are sensing.  As such, we cannot rightly sepa=
rate
>>>>>>> ourselves from that which we see. They are both the same thing.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> JA:  The conditions that let matter, patterns arise as Static Value=
s
>>>>>>>> depending on Dynamic Quality are important to know. One of the most=

>>>>>>>> important experiences for any pattern is the time experience. Befor=
e,
>>>>>> now
>>>>>>>> and later.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Mark:
>>>>>>> So far as I can tell, patterns do not arrise, we create them.  We ar=
e
>>>>>>> responsible for the patterns by which we interpret the world.  Witho=
ut
>>>>>>> anybody to create these patterns they do not exist.  Patterning is o=
ne of
>>>>>>> the highest achievements of Man.  The other one is, of course, humor=
.
>>>>>>> Matter does not arise, we bring it to life and call it matter.  We a=
re
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> creators of such matter since they become patterns in our heads.  Th=
is is
>>>>>>> what is meant by the Ghost of Reason.  Matter as we traditionally us=
e the
>>>>>>> word is a ghost, it is a fabrication.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> JA:  Every event, every episode in the book MALC is an example of t=
he
>>>>>>>> influence of Quality and the levels affecting our reality patterns.=
 The
>>>>>>>> trip starts and ends at the same place, like a circular movement. I=
t has
>>>>>>>> its certain top and bottom points. Every emotional sensation is
>>>>>>>> representing a value transmitted to the owner of the human pattern,=
 how
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> read the 42 guiding "lights" from the biological level and make the=
 best
>>>>>>>> choice from that. Biological patterns build their patterns upon the=
ir
>>>>>>>> experience from inorganic characteristic patterns. When Elsa is a s=
leep,
>>>>>>>> when John falls asleep, they are leaving the social level and all t=
hat
>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> left is their biological and inorganic patterns. Social patterns de=
pend
>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>> biological values, some time it is true, sometime the intellectual
>>>>>> pattern
>>>>>>>> in the mind mirror show a false picture of the social level.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Mark:
>>>>>>> OK, cool, I will keep that in mind when I get there (second time aro=
und).
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> JA:   When the spear passes Johns face he's facing the danger of a
>>>>>>>> One-dimensional pattern thrown by a disguised enemy with an untrue
>>>>>> Quality
>>>>>>>> experience. The dogs represents static power with not much intellec=
tual
>>>>>>>> understanding. Our modern era dominated by Monetaristic thinking is=
 very
>>>>>>>> dangerus because it is sort of a one-dimensional pattern. The "econ=
omic
>>>>>>>> man" is so primitive and that is why I suspect Ayn Rand to be a
>>>>>> undercover
>>>>>>>> agent sent by Josef Stalin to infiltrate western thinking into some=

>>>>>> kind of
>>>>>>>> photonegative mindmap of the economic machinery planned by the russ=
ian
>>>>>>>> communists. MALC is my contribution to broaden the perspective and s=
how
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> other important dimensions of economics.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Mark:  When you speak of "primitive man" it reminds me of a movie I j=
ust
>>>>>>> saw called The Master.  It is meant to be about "Scientology", where=
 we
>>>>>> are
>>>>>>> trapped in our primitive brains due to evil forces, of something.  A=

>>>>>> pretty
>>>>>>> good movie.  I really have no problem with Scientology although I am=
 not
>>>>>>> a practitioner, it is Scientism that I have a problem with.  We have=

>>>>>> become
>>>>>>> so bewitched by the world of objects and their "measurement" that we=
 do
>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> see that they are simply shadows being cast within our brains, and w=
e
>>>>>>> forget what it is that is casting these shadows.  Of course Plato sp=
eaks
>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> this as well.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> The point of MoQ is to get out of the cave of shadows.  Forget Scien=
ce
>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> all that it professes.  All that stuff is entertaining, but is also
>>>>>>> addictive.  People actually think that light is a wave or a particle=
.  Of
>>>>>>> course it is neither of these things, such models are
>>>>>>> simply descriptions of light.  Light has nothing to do with waves or=

>>>>>>> particles, those are just patterns we create.  If I paint a landscap=
e, I
>>>>>> do
>>>>>>> not then confuse my painting for the actual landscape.  In the same w=
ay,
>>>>>> we
>>>>>>> should not confuse light with our description of it.  Scientism is a=
 dead
>>>>>>> end.  It leads nowhere in terms of metaphysics.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> JA:  When John is chased by the ice floes, he's experiences the dan=
ger
>>>>>>>> of Two-dimensional patterns. When the passing train makes the groun=
d to
>>>>>>>> vibrate it is a power like exergy in change that creates new patter=
ns.
>>>>>>>> When the rabbit is crushed by the tyre it changes its Three-dimensi=
onal
>>>>>>>> pattern into a two-dimensional and it dies. Flat dog, no good.
>>>>>>>> When John walks through the dressing room his biological pattern is=

>>>>>>>> causing trouble for the female social environment. His biological n=
ose
>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> misleading him and so on. He is a lousy card player, why doesn't he=
 care
>>>>>>>> more for it?
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Yes, I like the two dimensional patterns for that is what objects ar=
e.
>>>>>> If
>>>>>>> we live in a world of self created objects, we become two dimensiona=
l.
>>>>>> MoQ
>>>>>>> provides one way in which to escape this form of existence.  We are
>>>>>> allowed
>>>>>>> to stand up and actually look around rather than scurry around as
>>>>>> shadows.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> JA:  Thanks for the inspiration. Maybe you should get more from a r=
eread
>>>>>>>> with this in mind.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Thanks, I will.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Hope what I present makes sense.  I find much more value in a world
>>>>>> without
>>>>>>> objects.  Like I say, Quality is a different way of looking at reali=
ty.
>>>>>>> Most would call it insane.  But that is simply because it has not ca=
ught
>>>>>>> on, yet...
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> I have to say, that I interpret the levels in a very different way t=
han
>>>>>> you
>>>>>>> do, as well.  Whatever works, heh?
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> All the best,
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Mark
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
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>>>>>>>> Archives:
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>>>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list
>>>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
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>>>>>>> Archives:
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>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list
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>>>>=20
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