[MD] moq self

[118]

Hi Marsha,
Yes, perhaps deception was not the best word.  I thought hard on that one,
looking through antonyms of truth.  Do you have a better way to separate
Truth from what is not Truth?  Let us assume that the word has some meaning
to most of us.

I like the Poe poem.  It starts as a statement, and ends as a question.
 One is truth, and the other is uncertainty.  We exist in both of those.
 Truth brings about uncertainty, and uncertainty brings about truth.  It is
a circle.  That is why both exist, in a Taoist fashion, in my opinion.  In
both of Pirsig's books, he presents an inquiry.  This implies uncertainty
in search of truth.  We can consider this whole forum to be the same thing.
 Some have assumed that Pirsig is truth, and we must abide by his examples
in order to progress MOQ.  I am of a different opinion, for to me Pirsig
still represents uncertainty in its own search.  That is why metaphysics is
never a done deal.

Would you say that neither truth nor uncertainty exist?

Cheers,
Mark

On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 11:52 PM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:

>
> Hi Mark
>
>
> On Sep 7, 2012, at 6:32 PM, 118 <ununoctiums at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 2:27 AM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Dreaming of waking up
> >>
> >> Last night Zhuang Zhou dreamed he was a butterfly, spirits soaring he
> was
> >> a butterfly (is it that in showing what he was he suited his own
> fancy?),
> >> and did not know about Zhou. When all of a sudden he awoke, he was Zhou
> >> with all his wits about him. He does not know whether he is Zhou who
> dreams
> >> he is a butterfly or a butterfly who dreams he is Zhou. Between Zhou and
> >> the butterfly there was necessarily a dividing; just this is what is
> meant
> >> by the transformation of things. (ch. 2, 61)
> >>
> >> Everything in this world can be taken as real or not real; or both real
> >> and not real; or neither real nor not real. This is the Buddha's
> teaching.
> >> (MMK 18:8)
> >>
> >>
> >> http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-MISC/101801.htm
> >>
> >> A Dream Within a Dream -Edgar Allan Poe
> >
> > Take this kiss upon the brow!
> > And, in parting from you now,
> > Thus much let me avow-
> > You are not wrong, who deem
> > That my days have been a dream;
> > Yet if hope has flown away
> > In a night, or in a day,
> > In a vision, or in none,
> > Is it therefore the less gone?
> > All that we see or seem
> > Is but a dream within a dream.
> >
> > I stand amid the roar
> > Of a surf-tormented shore,
> > And I hold within my hand
> > Grains of the golden sand-
> > How few! yet how they creep
> > Through my fingers to the deep,
> > While I weep- while I weep!
> > O God! can I not grasp
> > Them with a tighter clasp?
> > O God! can I not save
> > One from the pitiless wave?
> > Is all that we see or seem
> > But a dream within a dream?
> > Everything in this world can be taken as Truth or Deception (common); or
> > both Truth and Deception (Mark); or neither Truth nor Deception (Marsha).
> > This is the Buddha's teaching. (MHS 18:8)
>
>
> How wonderful!
>
> I think you are correct in your final analysis too, though I am not very
> comfortable with the term 'deception'.  This seems to give you the
> intellectual advantage since it allows you to argue positively for either
> truth or deception (at your pleasure), while I am left with nothing much to
> say but 'not this, not that'.  I really do believe the path to the Ultimate
> is found in discovering what is false, but my view is not nihilistic for I
> do not think that nothing at all exists.  Patterns conventionally exist and
> aren't they wondrous?  Curiosity exists and doesn't it represent the root
> of the intellectual level and the moving beyond?  "See for yourself."
>
>
> Thanks for posting Poe's poem; it's great!
>
>
> Marsha
>
>
>
>
>
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> Archives:
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> http://moq.org/md/archives.html
>