[MD] 4 Mark - corrected.

[118]

My question was, what Do you find necessarily true?

I do not see how you are exploring MOQ since you prefer to stay away from it.  What have you found in your explorations of MOQ?

When you say "my experiences" what do you mean by "my".  What are you pointing to so specifically?  What is this "my" that you refer to.  So you think that experience is something that happens to this "my"?  If so, where does experience end and "my" start?

Can you truly objectivize you "I" as you do?  What does "your" meditation tell "you".  The manner in which you express yourself seems to be in conflict with what you proclaim.  Which one is correct for you?


Mark

On Sep 12, 2012, at 9:19 AM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:

> 
> Hi Mark, 
> 
> When I talk of patterns flowing I am explaining my experience in an introspective-meditative (conscious awareness) practice of watching my thoughts come and go.  As I've said to David, I will say to you.  I do not insist, or even suggest, that you adopt my position.   I am not concerned about being taken seriously, I am interested in exploring the MoQ.  That is Quality (DQ/sq);  after that there is morally categorizing the static (patterned) quality into a four-level, evolutionary, hierarchical structure:  inorganic, biological, social and intellectual.   I find it more useful to consider objects of knowledge (stuff in the encyclopedia) as 'static patterns of value' ("patterns") rather than 'truths'.  I think RMP made a good choice in choosing the term 'patterns' rather than 'truth'.  I prefer to think of patterns as hypothetical (supposed but not necessarily real or true.)   Once one accepts the MoQ's fundamental principal that the world is nothing but Value, then 'expanded rationality' occurs when an individual transforms the natural tendency to reify self and world into the natural tendency to hold all static patterns of value to be hypothetical (supposed but not necessarily real or true.)  By using 'hypothetical' I think there is less of a tendency toward intellectual arrogance.  Understanding static (patterned) value as hypothetical acknowledges the incompleteness of what we know and makes room for additional inquiry with new possibilities; it promotes an attitude of fearless curiosity: gumption.  It moves one away from thinking of entities as existing inherently and independent of consciousness.   
> 
> 
> Marsha 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Sep 12, 2012, at 11:36 AM, 118 wrote:
> 
>> Hi Marsha,
>> 
>> I did not say that truth was an individual's point of view.  Such a point
>> of view comes after truth.  It is what creates the patterns (that you
>> consider to be "flowing").  I am not sure what you mean by patterns flowing
>> since such patterns are constructed by consciousness.  As I have said
>> previously, we create patterns; they are non-existent outside of our
>> creation.  There is no flowing, there is production of patterns.  Truth is
>> the starting place for those patterns to be produced.  Sorry this doesn't
>> make sense to you.  You are looking at truth objectively and that is a dead
>> end.  Please read Pirsig's books with this in mind.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> You have no interest in truth since you are hoping to find it somewhere.
>> Of course you will never find it, since you are stuck in a relative truth.
>> There is nothing to base such truth on.   It is trying to construct truth
>> as some objective absolute that results in paradoxes.   With my
>> interpretation of truth, there is no paradox.  Don’t worry if you do not
>> understand this, it takes a different perspective from the one which you
>> have.  It has to do with Quality.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> In terms of new topics, I was following up with you on your comments, so it
>> was you who started the subject of value interacting with consciousness.
>> If you made this statement by mistake, or wrote with little thought, I
>> understand that.  However, one should take responsibility for one's own
>> statements don't you think?  How else are we to take you seriously?  I will
>> keep in mind that many of your comments are not well thought out, and that
>> you do not wish to elaborate on them.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Your comments are entertaining and I will not question them.  Thank you for
>> the soliloquies.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> Mark
>> 
>> On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 7:54 PM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Hi Mark,
>> 
>> Your definition of truth makes very little sense to me.  It doesn't seem to
>> be a legitimate definition.  What does it mean to say 'truth' is an
>> individual's point-of-view?  Would that be whatever flavor of pattern is
>> flowing through consciousness at any given moment, like thinking that
>> 'truth' is an individual's point-of-view?  Maybe you have your own paradox
>> to unravel.  And such a definition doesn't seem to fit  your concerns to
>> "considering patterns as hypothetical" either.  I am worried that next
>> someone is going to define 'truth' as a chocolate chip cookie.
>> 
>> If you'd like to discuss a new topic concerning consciousness, I suggest
>> you start a new thread.
>> 
>> 
>> Marsha
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Mark previously: I wrote on truth in previous recent posts, both to Ron and
>> dmb.  Here it is in a nutshell.  Truth is that place from which we start in
>> our creation of patterns.  It cannot be pointed to, because it is the
>> window through which we view all else.
>>>> 
>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list
>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
>>> Archives:
>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html
>> Moq_Discuss mailing list
>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
>> Archives:
>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> 
> 
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> Archives:
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> http://moq.org/md/archives.html