[MD] oldies but goodies

[118]

Hi Marsha,
It seems like you are having problems with the word "truth".  How would you define this word?  This way we can see where you are coming from.
Thanks,


Mark

On Sep 12, 2012, at 3:38 PM, X Acto <xacto at rocketmail.com> wrote:

> hi Marsha,
> You affirm what I say then call it an absolutist red herring?
> o.k.
> You are saying that you preffer to think of patterns as having no value.
> That is a kind of skeptical relativism, it is the problem.
>  
> -R
>  
> 
> ________________________________
> From: MarshaV <valkyr at att.net>
> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org 
> Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2012 10:50 AM
> Subject: Re: [MD] oldies but goodies
> 
> 
> Hi Ron,
> 
> Notice I didn't say patterns can be 'hypothetical' or 'truth' it doesn't make any difference.  I find it more useful to consider objects of knowledge (stuff in the encyclopedia) as 'static patterns of value' ("patterns") rather than 'truths'.  I think the term 'patterns' is a good representation.  I prefer to think of patterns as hypothetical (supposed but not necessarily real or true.)  Presenting the absolutist's definition of 'relativism' is a red-herring.  What non-sense!!!  
> 
> 
> Marsha 
> 
> 
> 
> On Sep 12, 2012, at 10:32 AM, X Acto wrote:
> 
>> 
>> 
>> [Mark had said]
>> Hi Ron,
>> hmmm... Underling ethical values are conflicting?  I assume you are speaking of Morality here.  What you are pointing to are conflicts in morality.
>> 
>> This is an interesting topic since it relates directly to Lila.  What has Pirsig said about conflicts in morality and how these relate to a Moral sense of the "universe"?
>> 
>> I would like to know how your statement refers to MOQ.  I assume this is why you brought it up.  Please explain what you mean philosophically by this.
>> 
>> 
>> [Ron replies]
>> I think you are close to my meaning, Pirsigs conception of the "true" is closely connected and associated with 
>> the ancient Greek Arete, excellence. He then points to the etymological root meaning being associated to art,
>> and ritual. The Greek culture valued excellence and this is a key point to remember. The aim and goal of Pirsigs
>> efforts are addressing a root cultural crisis, a crisis in that excellence has been lost to a post modern sceptical 
>> relativistic attitude that has become fashionable. To clarify in simple terms regarding ethical concerns, this is
>> where the crisis is pointed out as a cultural paralysis due to the current trend of relativistic thinking. Nothing
>> is true anymore, one's truth is as good as anothers truth and the deconstruction of truth and the art and practice
>> of truth telling has become devalued to such an extent that it also deconstructs social patterns of value, 
>> A huge problem in which RMP's work is a reaction to it.
>> When the question is asked," well then what is true?"
>> we can re-frame it in terms of "what is excellent?"
>> This is where there can be many answers, those attitudes which value the devaluation of excellence do so, or as
>> it seems to me, to achieve a certain freedom from social constraints by asserting a certain individuality.
>> RMP makes a few good arguements as to why moving towards that freedom by devaluing excellence
>> has dire consequences.It SEEMS as if what is being moved towards is dynamic freedom but at the expense
>> of undercutting social values.
>> To conclude:
>> The reason why there is such a reaction here to the devaluation of truth to hypothetical patterns relative
>> to an inviduals history and are as good as the next individuals conception and values is that it promotes the very
>> problem that it is reacting to. It conflicts with the central aim of the thesis.
>> 
>> thnx
>> 
>> 
>> On Sep 10, 2012, at 6:39 AM, X Acto <xacto at rocketmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> [Dave H said]
>>> Nice Highlight Ron.
>>> 
>>> Marsha still dislikes precision…  There's a lot of great things in the world which are created by precision.  Technology comes to mind, but then also, Zen mysticism, you're right.  As I've said - a good mystic, like Steve Hagen, would know what DQ is and what it isn't.  To know the difference between the two however, requires care, attention to detail and precision. Not muddying of this distinction by claiming that everything is best seen as hypothetical rather than true.
>>> 
>>> Isn't it amazing that there's someone on a philosophical discussion forum who doesn't like precision? I guess there's a philosophy for all types..
>>> 
>>> [Ron replies]
>>> I think it can be shown that THAT sort of skeptical relativism is a self refuting thesis but that is beside the point.
>>> The underlying ethical attitudes are deeply conflicted.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ..
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