[MD] Is experience just DQ?

[David Harding]

Hi Dan,

In this post I've tried to ask more questions to hopefully bring out more assumptions that you might have and aid our discussion..

So, a few questions on the 'nature' of DQ to begin...

When you talk about Dynamic Quality - can you do so without using static quality?

Is the term Dynamic Quality actually static quality?

Assuming it is.. Isn't the definition of Dynamic Quality into something static like this rather degenerate? 

Assuming you agree - Why do you commit this degeneracy?

When Pirsig claims that 'Everything is an analogy.' in ZMM - where does static quality come into our understanding of this statement?

When you use an analogy to describe DQ - is that analogy DQ or sq?

Finally, why do you think that Pirsig breaks the undefinable Quality of ZMM into the two terms DQ and sq in Lila?  Why bother writing Lila - why not just leave Quality undefined?

>> Hi Dan,
>> 
>> You are never going to understand me if you don't agree with me when I say that the MOQ allows multiple competing ideas to exist simultaneously..
> 
> Dan:
> First, perhaps I should clear up the misconception you seem to have
> regarding my understanding. I do understand you. If you read the quote
> from Lila's Child where I asked Mr. Pirsig how Dynamic Quality and
> experience become synonymous, you might see that I was thinking along
> the same lines as you, namely, that we experience static quality. That
> was why I asked the questions I asked.
> 
> Now, as far as multiple competing ideas existing simultaneously, I
> would say as long as they are high quality ideas, sure. Here is an
> example of a competing idea. Please tell me whether or not you think
> it is of value:
> 
> Recently there was a shooting in Connecticut. A crazed man walked into
> a school and gunned down a number of women and children. Now there are
> folk (laughably calling themselves 'Truthers') advancing the idea that
> this shooting is a hoax perpetrated to further gun control. What's
> worse, there are many people who actually believe it! Do you fall into
> that camp?

I think that an understanding of the MOQ which can explain how LA experienced and earthquake, than one which cannot, is better.

>> 
>> In your view I contradict myself constantly when I say that Dynamic Quality is synonymous with experience. And then later I will go on to say that experience is static quality..
> 
> Dan:
> This is the first time I see you saying Dynamic Quality is synonymous
> with experience. You've repeatedly said in the past that we experience
> DQ. That isn't the same thing. I think 'becomes' works better than
> 'is' in your sentence (as I will explain later) but I also see it as
> an improvement over what you've been saying.

Right. Because we need to avoid equating Dynamic Quality with anything right?   But then you do realise that the term DQ is an association of DQ with a static quality combination of the terms 'Dynamic' and 'Quality' right? 

>> So in support of the MOQ allowing multiple competing ideas to exist - I provide the following..
>> 
>> "Unlike subject-object metaphysics the Metaphysics of Quality does not insist on a single exclusive truth. If subjects and objects are held to be the ultimate reality then we're permitted only one construction of things - that which corresponds to the 'objective' world - and all other constructions are unreal. But if Quality or excellence is seen as the ultimate reality then it becomes possible for more than one set of truths to exist. Then one doesn't seek the absolute Truth.' One seeks instead the highest quality intellectual explanation of things with the knowledge that if the past is any guide to the future this explanation must be taken provisionally; as useful until something better comes along. One can then examine intellectual realities the same way one examines paintings in an art gallery, not with an effort to find out which one is the 'real' painting, but simply to enjoy and keep those that are of value. There are many sets of intellectual reality in existence and we can perceive some to have more quality than others, but that we do so is, in part, the result of our history and current patterns of values." - Lila.
> 
> Dan:
> I see no problem with this. But what you espouse isn't better (of
> higher value) than what Robert Pirsig has said. It is confusing at
> best and tends to lead one back into thinking of objects existing
> separately and prior to experience.

I disagree and I disagree that RMP claims that LA doesn't experience earthquakes..

There was a post recently about how people are confused why Pirsig left India.. But it's written in ZMM why he left:

"But one day in the classroom the professor of philosophy was blithely expounding on the illusory nature of the world for what seemed the fiftieth time and Phædrus raised his hand and asked coldly if it was believed that the atomic bombs that had dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were illusory. The professor smiled and said yes. That was the end of the exchange.

Within the traditions of Indian philosophy that answer may have been correct, but for Phædrus and for anyone else who reads newspapers regularly and is concerned with such things as mass destruction of human beings that answer was hopelessly inadequate. He left the classroom, left India and gave up."

LA experiences earthquakes the same way Nagasaki and Hiroshima experience atomic bombs...

They exist and are experienced by both the physical cities and the people within them…  


>> -----
>> 
>> So now - I have some questions for you:
>> 
>> (Asked in post below after all..)
>> 
>>>> Experience. What is it? Does it immediately imply a subject and an object?
>>>> 
>>>> Well not according to the MOQ.
>>>> 
>>>> In the beginning there was Experience!
>>> 
>>> Dan:
>>> Try using the active voice instead of the passive: The beginning IS experience!
>>> 
>>> See, that way we're not saying experience is transcendent.
>> 
>> But experience(DQ) can be transcendent… If it wasn't transcendent then the Gateless Gate would have no significance to us:
>> 
>> "In this analogy, as one approaches the gate, it seems to be a goal, but after one has passed through and looks back he sees there never was any gate Translating back into the MOQ, one can say that Dynamic Quality is a goal from a static point of view, but is the origin of all things from a Dynamic understanding."
>> 
>> Notice how Pirsig explicitly points out two opposing points of view? These two views are the whole point to all my posts… This is what I'm saying..  From a static point of view - using the language of everyday life - DQ is a transcendent goal and our everyday experiences are sq. But - from a Dynamic understanding, DQ creates all experience to the point where DQ is synonymous with experience…
> 
> Dan:
> tran·scend·ent
> [tran-sen-duhnt] Show IPA
> adjective
> 1. going beyond ordinary limits; surpassing; exceeding.
> 2. superior or supreme.
> 3. Theology . (of the Deity) transcending the universe, time, etc.
> Compare immanent (  def 3 ) .
> 4. Philosophy .
> a. Scholasticism. above all possible modes of the infinite.
> b. Kantianism. transcending experience; not realizable in human
> experience. Compare transcendental (  defs 5a, c ) .
> c. (in modern realism) referred to, but beyond, direct apprehension;
> outside consciousness. [dictionary.com]
> 
> Dan comments:
> Perhaps I misunderstood your use of the word but looking over these
> definitions I somehow doubt it. And again, I see you saying "DQ
> creates all experience" and that is NOT what Robert Pirsig is on about
> in the above passages. Let me see if I can explain:
> 
> Dynamic Quality is a goal from a static point of view. Static quality
> emerges from Dynamic Quality and so it is no longer experience. Static
> quality is a memory of experience and so it seems as if Dynamic
> Quality is some sort of goal, another static pattern to define. Once
> we pass through the gate of realization we recognize Dynamic Quality
> is NOT a static pattern at all. Dynamic Quality has become synonymous
> with experience. 'It' doesn't create experience, however.

Okay in your explanation here: what happens to the first 'static point of view'?  Is it simply 'wrong'? What happens *after* Dynamic Quality becomes synonymous with experience? What about experiences of static things like atomic bombs and thoughts and computers..

>> I don't disagree with most of  what you write below.. You want to argue with me,
> 
> Dan:
> No, I don't want to argue with you. I am attempting although rather
> poorly to point out the fallacy of your position in regards to the
> MOQ.

I would agree with this summation.  The more you explain why you think I am wrong - the easier it is for me as well to have this discussion with you.  Otherwise I only have to guess and often times it seems I am wrong.  I'm sticking with asking questions mostly this time around..

> 
>> but I'm sure most of what you've written below is ultimately correct...    I agree with you about DQ being synonymous with experience..  But there is another opposing point of view… The language of every day life where what we experience is sq..
> 
> Dan:
> Sure, if one believes they are a witness (subject) to a world of
> everyday things (objects). The MOQ teaches us that subjects and
> objects are not pre-existing things. They emerge from experience. So
> to say in the language of everyday life we experience static quality
> (subjects and objects) is taking a giant step backwards from the
> expanded rationality offered by the MOQ.
> 
> Is that really what you want to do?

I'll answer sarcastically that of course that is what I want to do!

Does the MOQ oppose SOM? If the MOQ is what you call an 'expanded rationality', why should we discard SOM?  The MOQ claims that 'ultimately Quality isn't anything definable'.  Does that mean we should just keep our mouths shut and forget our opinions and all static quality?

>>>> ...
>>>> 
>>>> "In any hierarchy of metaphysical classification the most important division is the first one, for this division dominates everything beneath it. If this first division is bad there is no way you can ever build a really good system of classification around it.
>>>> In his book Phaedrus had tried to save Quality from metaphysics by refusing to define it, by placing it outside the dialectical chess board. Anything that is undefined is outside metaphysics, since metaphysics can only function with defined terms. If you can't define it you can't argue about it. He had demonstrated that even though you can't define Quality you still must agree that it exists, since a world from which value is subtracted becomes unrecognisable.
>>>> 
>>>> But he realized that sooner or later he was going to have to stop carping about how bad subject-object metaphysics was and say something positive for a change. Sooner or later he was going to have to come up with a way of dividing Quality that was better than subjects and objects. He would have to do that or get out of metaphysics entirely. It's all right to condemn somebody else's bad metaphysics but you can't replace it with a metaphysics that consists of just one word.
>>>> 
>>>> By even using the term 'Quality' he had already violated the nothingness of mystic reality. The use of the term 'Quality' sets up a pile of questions of its own that have nothing to do with mystic reality and walks away leaving them unanswered. Even the name, 'Quality,' was a kind of definition since it tended to associate mystic reality with certain fixed and limited understandings. Already he was in trouble. Was the mystic reality of the universe really more immanent in the higher-priced cuts of meat in the butcher shop? These were 'Quality' meats, weren't they? Was the butcher using the term incorrectly? Phaedrus had no answers." Lila - Page 9
>>>> 
>>>> So how do we divide this 'nowness'?  This 'immediate reality'...  This Quality which is right in front of us..   How do we divide it up? We can't avoid definition…  As Pirsig writes :   By even using the term 'Quality' he had already violated the nothingness of mystic reality.
>>>> 
>>>> So how do we divide it…
>>>> 
>>>> The best way to divide it up is by acknowledging this ineffability.  To build this ineffability right into the structure basic structure of it.   So how do we do that? Well, we do that by starkly separating it against what it is not..  It is not, fixed.  It is not rigid.  It is not defined. It is not new. Anything with those characteristics, is part of what it is not… static quality. Even our metaphysics which we are defining right now is something which is not 'it'.
>>>> 
>>>> Now though - you will notice that our original DQ experience is divided in two. The source, and the result.  All is experience. One is designated the undefined originator, the other - the result. This is the key point. When we break up experience into two admittedly sq distinctions like this…both still represent experience...
>>> 
>>> Dan:
>>> No, no, no... this is not correct at all [Dan wipes off blackboard
>>> while muttering to himself]. Once Dynamic Quality is divided up,
>>> defined, organized, intellectualized, it is no longer experience.
>>> Static quality emerges from Dynamic Quality. Dynamic Quality isn't
>>> divided in 2.
>> 
>> I'll repeat the quote:
>> 
>> "In any hierarchy of metaphysical classification the most important division is the first one, for this division dominates everything beneath it. If this first division is bad there is no way you can ever build a really good system of classification around it."
>> 
>> If Dynamic Quality isn't 'divided' as part of the first division of the MOQ then what is divided?
> 
> Dan:
> A set of intellectual patterns known as the MOQ. Experience cannot be
> divided. Once divided and intellectualized into patterns it is no
> longer Dynamic Quality.

Experience(DQ) can be BOTH infinitely divided and not divided…  You are focusing on but one aspect of DQ..  The not divided aspect.

>> 
>> "So one can say correctly that Dynamic Quality is both infinitely definable and undefinable because definition never exhausts it." - LIla's Child.
> 

Notice how the point you just made points to the fact that Dynamic Quality is 'undefinable'?  What about that other aspect of Dynamic Quality which is infinitely definable?  Dynamic Quality is infinitely definable as static quality.

> Dan:
> This quote should be all that is needed to understand what Robert
> Pirsig is saying concerning Dynamic Quality.
 
Intellectually it is all that is needed yes.  But then there is experience itself..

>>>> " A subject-object metaphysics is in fact a metaphysics in which the first division of Quality - the first slice of undivided experience - is into subjects and objects. Once you have made that slice, all of human experience is supposed to fit into one of these two boxes. The trouble is, it doesn't. What he had seen is that there is a metaphysical box that sits above these two boxes, Quality itself. And once he'd seen this he also saw a huge number of ways in which Quality can be divided. Subjects and objects are just one of the ways.
>>>> The question was, which way was best?"
>>>> 
>>>> I think the best way to first divide up this undivided experience (Which as we know is DQ) is into the static quality intellectual distinctions of DQ and static quality.  'It' happens and then we create these terms DQ and sq about it later.. And this idea is built into the foundation of the MOQ itself.
>>>> 
>>>> And this is the source of the confusion...  *Of course* What we now call DQ is first. *Of course* it is before everything.  But we are talking with words which have their own fixed metaphysical meanings.  The term DQ is something static. With the MOQ we separate Dynamic Quality into two.  We separate DQ(experience) into the static quality distinction between sq and DQ and this breaks 'experience' into two.
>>>> 
>>>> This is a subtle point but an important one as it explains better how we can say that we experience static quality - static quality is part of that originally undefined experience but all is experience.
>>> 
>>> Dan:
>>> No. You are still seeing the world in terms of objects that can be
>>> divided. I think you are missing a great piece of the MOQ puzzle by
>>> your continued insistence on equating static quality with experience.
>> 
>> I think you are missing a great piece of the puzzle by refusing to equate static quality with experience.  There are two perspectives of the MOQ.. not one.  The static point of view perspective of everyday life… and the 'enlightened' perspective of DQ.  You seem to have hit enlightenment and gone - 'There is no longer experience of static quality' and ended it there…
> 
> Dan:
> I am not refusing anything except to go along with the misguided
> notion that we experience static quality or Dynamic Quality for that
> matter. There is only experience. Static quality, which emerges later,
> is no longer experience.
> 
> I assure you I am not enlightened as I have said many times in the
> past. How can I be enlightened when there is no such thing as
> enlightenment?

Right… An enlightened person never claims to be enlightened for distinctions between folks who are enlightened and folks who aren't don't exist from a Dynamic perspective.  I get your perspective.. But there is a whole other everyday static point of view which does picking and choosing between folks who are enlightened and folks who aren't.  Or more correctly.. folks who are enlightened and folks who don't realise they are enlightened.


> 
>> 
>>>> This is along the lines of a Pirsig quote you provided recently..
>>>> 
>>>> "DG:
>>>> Yes, this does help, thank you. What bothers me slightly—I am sure I am not seeing it in the proper light yet—is how experience can be synonymous with Dynamic Quality? Isn’t experience that which we define?
>>>> RMP:
>>>> Dynamic Quality is defined constantly by everyone. Consciousness can be described is a process of defining Dynamic Quality. But once the definitions emerge, they are static patterns and no longer apply to Dynamic Quality. So one can say correctly that Dynamic Quality is both infinitely definable and undefinable because definition never exhausts it. "
>>>> 
>>>> DQ(experience) is both infinitely definable(as sq) and undefinable(which is what we call DQ). Experience can be either. Not one or the other.
>>> 
>>> Dan:
>>> Please read carefully:
>>> 
>>> "But once the definitions emerge, they are static patterns and no
>>> longer apply to Dynamic Quality."
>>> 
>>> Now, please read this carefully (I see you have 'conveniently' excised
>>> this from my quote to dmb, but used the rest of it. I wonder why? Is
>>> this a case of ignoring that which doesn't agree with you?):
>>> 
>>> RMP:
>>> In a subject-object metaphysics, this experience is between a
>>> preexisting object and subject, but in the MOQ, there is no
>>> pre-existing subject or object. Experience and Dynamic Quality become
>>> synonymous. Change is probably the first concept emerging from this
>>> Dynamic experience. Time is a primitive intellectual index of this
>>> change. Substance was postulated by Aristotle as that which does not
>>> change. Scientific “matter” is derived from the concept of substance.
>>> Subjects and objects are intellectual terms referring to matter and
>>> nonmatter. So in the MOQ experience comes first, everything else comes
>>> later. This is pure empiricism, as opposed to scientific empiricism,
>>> which, with its pre-existing subjects and objects, is not really so
>>> pure. I hope this explains what is said above, “In the MOQ time is
>>> dependent on experience independently of matter. Matter is a deduction
>>> from experience.”
>>> 
>>> Now!
>>> 
>>> IF Dynamic Quality and experience become synonymous in the MOQ, and IF
>>> static patterns no longer apply to Dynamic Quality (experience), then
>>> doesn't it seem that we do not experience static patterns? They are
>>> concepts of experience, not experience itself! If you do not see this,
>>> then I suspect you are caught up in your own notions of the MOQ to the
>>> exclusion of everything else and what's more, nothing I nor anyone
>>> else can say will shake you from your malaise.
>> 
>> As much as you disagree I still agree with you. You're right - static patterns can be concepts of experience! In fact we both experience and do not experience static quality. What a contradiction! But unlike SOM the MOQ isn't based on one set of objective truths but based on how good these truths are at explaining reality.  In this case, we have two truths - an ultimate truth and one which we use for everyday…  You're ultimately right, but there is still people experiencing a whole bunch of static quality things which our everyday ordinary perspectives would say exist..
> 
> Dan:
> Again, I never said static quality doesn't exist. It simply no longer
> exists as experience.

No longer exists as experience?  So static quality did once exist as experience?  How interesting..

> There is no contradiction here. There are also
> people who believe the world is flat, we never walked on the moon,
> there are faces on Mars, and there is a god in heaven above looking
> down on us all judging our each and every action. So what? The
> everyday world is full of idiocy. Does that mean we have to play
> along?

What you are talking about here is quality of ideas and not whether static quality things exist..  Yes, our ideas (such as the MOQ) create things.. But the quality of explanation is what makes them right or wrong and not simply the proclamation that they are right or their existence as ideas..

>>>>> Dan:
>>>>> That's a good reason, sure. But is an Internet discussion group really
>>>>> the best place to be improving one's patterns of life?
>>>> 
>>>> I think it's a good place to improve the cultural (social and intellectual) patterns of ones life.
>>> 
>>> Dan:
>>> Though I tend to enjoy these little moments here I think there are
>>> better places: a quiet mountain trail, a conversation with a beautiful
>>> woman in a dimly lighted room, a baby cooing in my arms, a cat
>>> snuggled in my lap... all these moments have and had a far greater
>>> affect upon the improvement of my life. They effected a change in my
>>> very soul far more deeply than any intellectual discussion has ever
>>> done.
>> 
>> Okay then, you are in the wrong place?
> 
> Dan:
> I would say (and did say, at the risk of repeating myself) that there
> are better ways to improve my social and intellectual values than
> participating in this forum. That doesn't mean I don't enjoy these
> moments, however. You are the one preaching multiple simultaneous
> truths, David. There is no cut and dried right and wrong in the MOQ.
> There are values that range from high to low. There are times when I
> see this forum as a high value endeavor, and times when I do not.

Okay I can go along with that answer.. 

> 
>> 
>>>>> I like to think that by moving closer to the center of experience I
>>>>> cultivate compassion not only for people but for every sentient being.
>>>>> By seeing the transitory nature of the world I come to know the
>>>>> significance of the moment. But I am not going to do that here.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Make yourself alive! The MOQ or any intellectual pursuit cannot do
>>>>> this. Surely you know that already, though…
>>>> 
>>>> Well I feel very alive intellectually thinking and talking about the MOQ.
>>> 
>>> Dan:
>>> But there is so much more!
>> 
>> Indeed.   So many more things to experience… :-)
> 
> Dan:
> As long as one stays in the moment.

Or not, and we think about them intellectually. Which is a different experience than 'staying in the moment', but an experience none the less...

> 
>> 
>>>>>> The MOQ is obviously a Metaphysics.  What is Metaphysics for? To me, it is an intellectual construct which, depending on its quality, can help us to live better lives.   It does this by providing a context for *every* thing.  With a good metaphysics like the MOQ we can compare any two things and use it to help us determine which is better.  Making quality decisions like this help us to become better people.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Dan:
>>>>> The MOQ is a better way of ordering reality than believing the world
>>>>> is composed of nothing but subject and objects. Like all intellectual
>>>>> patterns of quality, it isn't experience; it is a map of experience.
>>>> 
>>>> Intellectual patterns are a part of experience which describe and represent other experiences independent of those original experiences.
>>> 
>>> Dan:
>>> So are there also experiences which experience experiences that
>>> represent and describe those other experiences of the original
>>> experiences that are independent of experienced experiences?
>>> 
>>> "You have to cut it off somewhere, and it seems to me the greatest
>>> meaning can be given to the intellectual level if it is confined to
>>> the skilled manipulation of abstract symbols THAT HAVE NO
>>> CORRESPONDING PARTICULAR EXPERIENCE and which behave according to
>>> rules of their own." [Robert Pirsig's letter to Paul Turner, caps
>>> mine]
>>> 
>>> There. Isn't that much simpler?
>> 
>> Right. 'Skilled manipulation of abstract symbols' - that's not an everyday experience?
> 
> Dan:
> These abstract symbols emerge from experience. They are not
> experience, everyday or otherwise.

If I paint a symbol on a wall in front of us both.

Is it real? Does it exist? Is it part of our experience?

What about if we think about a symbol?

Subjects and Objects are not ultimate experience but they are part of experience nonetheless..

>>>>>>>>>> Is experience Dynamic Quality? Is that all experience is? I don't think that it is.  I think that experience includes static quality as well.  Try as we might but we cannot avoid static quality.  To say that experience is only Dynamic Quality would be something a mystic would say.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> To a mystic, the only important thing is Dynamic Quality… The patterns are illusory and a distraction from DQ which is 'true experience'.  To a Zen Buddhist the patterns are Dukha - a distraction, cause suffering and not actually real. They are an attempt at capturing that which cannot be caught.   To a Zen Buddhist - by doing this capturing of things into static quality we are only going against the fundamental nature of all things which is Dynamic Quality.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> While MOQ agrees that trying to capture DQ with sq is indeed impossible - it is a fact of life and unavoidable.  Therefore, in the MOQ experience is both Dynamic Quality *and* static quality.  These patterns which we experience as a result of Dynamic Quality are not merely a distraction but are unavoidable, real, and with rta -  can actually result in better static quality.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Dan:
>>>>>>>>> According to the MOQ we don't actually experience static quality. I
>>>>>>>>> think this excerpt might help illuminate my point here. See what you
>>>>>>>>> think:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> "In a subject-object metaphysics, this experience is between a
>>>>>>>>> preexisting object and subject, but in the MOQ, there is no
>>>>>>>>> pre-existing subject or object. Experience and Dynamic Quality become
>>>>>>>>> synonymous. Change is probably the first concept emerging from this
>>>>>>>>> Dynamic experience. Time is a primitive intellectual index of this
>>>>>>>>> change. Substance was postulated by Aristotle as that which does not
>>>>>>>>> change. Scientific “matter” is derived from the concept of substance.
>>>>>>>>> Subjects and objects are intellectual terms referring to matter and
>>>>>>>>> nonmatter. So in the MOQ experience comes first, everything else comes
>>>>>>>>> later. This is pure empiricism, as opposed to scientific empiricism,
>>>>>>>>> which, with its pre-existing subjects and objects, is not really so
>>>>>>>>> pure. I hope this explains what is said above, “In the MOQ time is
>>>>>>>>> dependent on experience independently of matter. Matter is a deduction
>>>>>>>>> from experience.” [Robert Pirsig, Lila's Child]
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Dan:
>>>>>>>>> Note he says experience comes first and every THING else comes later.
>>>>>>>>> There are no pre-existing patterns of value, or subjects and objects
>>>>>>>>> for that matter. So to say we experience both Dynamic Quality and
>>>>>>>>> static quality is to form a fundamental misunderstanding with the MOQ.
>>>>>>>>> Static quality comes after experience.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Yes, the MOQ begins with the experience of Dynamic Quality.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Dan:
>>>>>>> I don't see it that way. The MOQ clearly states that experience and
>>>>>>> Dynamic Quality are seen as synonymous. We do not experience Dynamic
>>>>>>> Quality. 'It' IS experience.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Yes.  And as I've said what feels like a million times.  I *agree* with you.  Ultimately all we experience is DQ to the point where experience and DQ are synonymous. But if we say that's all there is - then this discussion of ours is pointless.  Why even talk if all there is - is DQ? These words of ours ruin this ultimately undefined nature of reality.   It's very easy to continually disagree with someone when they start talking about static quality on this discussion board and show them how they're wrong to talk about it as what's ultimate and fundamental is DQ.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Dan:
>>>>> I'm sorry, David, but I do not see that you agree with me at all. You
>>>>> may believe you agree and I sense you are becoming frustrated with my
>>>>> repeated attempts to show you that we do not agree but what else can I
>>>>> do?
>>>>> 
>>>>> You seem to be viewing Dynamic Quality as something ineffable and
>>>>> beyond our grasp. It is right here! Right now! Experience is
>>>>> synonymous with Dynamic Quality.
>>>> 
>>>> I've never met anyone who agrees just for the sake of it.  A very strange person would do that on a philosophical forum.  I am not one of those people because I *actually* agree with you here..   Experience starts with DQ. Then we divide that experience intellectually into the two parts called Dynamic Quality and static quality.  Both are still experience.
>>> 
>>> Dan:
>>> But you don't agree with me!!! How can you say you agree when you are
>>> arguing against me? We don't divide experience! Static patterns emerge
>>> from experience but these patterns NO LONGER APPLY TO DYNAMIC QUALITY!
>>> They no longer apply to experience! So how is it you agree with me?
>> 
>> I'm not arguing against you.  I just think there is a wider perspective than the one you are offering..   It's not like I disagree with anything you say..  In fact, I think *ultimately* you're right.  Experience is Dynamic Quality and not static quality. That's talking ultimately - from a Dynamic perspective.. But there is another perspective of everyday affairs such as LA experiencing earthquakes which I think that you are missing..
> 
> Dan:
> You have yet to grasp the perspective I am offering. So how can you
> say you're offering a wider one? Because you believe cities experience
> earthquakes and objects exist prior to experience? Don't you see what
> you're saying? You are offering up the tired old subject observing
> object theory that the MOQ is meant to expand upon.

I cannot 'grasp' your perspective because your 'perspective' isn't graspable.  Your 'perspective' is that of immediate experience.. Dynamic Quality.. what's right in front of us… not thoughts moments later…. 

But then, there's this other world of thought..  The intellectual level..  Do I 'imagine' the world of thought or does the intellectual level exist?

Is this intellectual level part of experience?

What about other levels - Do I 'imagine' the blowing of trees in the wind, and this keyboard in front of me, and a good friend being kind? 

> 
>> I've said it before but the MOQ is summed up very nicely at the end of Lila..
>> 
>> "Good as a noun rather than an adjective is all the Metaphysics of Quality is about. Of course, the ultimate Quality isn't a noun or an adjective or anything else definable, but if you had to reduce the whole Metaphysics of Quality to a single sentence, that would be it."
>> 
>> Ultimately Quality isn't anything definable - but qualities - they are nouns - they are things which we experience.. I don't know if it could be much clearer than that..
> 
> Dan:
> Again, the MOQ isn't experience. There are no pre-existing things like
> nouns or the MOQ waiting for us to experience. There are sets of
> patterns emerging from experience. Perhaps if you keep that in mind as
> you re-read the quote that will help.

It helps me to see your perspective.. A perspective which I repeatedly say isn't wrong.. But there is another inescapable perspective which says that things like nouns and the MOQ exist and are a part of our experience.

>>>>>> But here we are. Ruining DQ…
>>>>> 
>>>>> Dan:
>>>>> How does one ruin experience?
>>>> 
>>>> By describing this fundamentally ineffable and undivided experience into different levels and terms such as DQ and sq.
>>> 
>>> Dan:
>>> One cannot ruin experience. When we begin the defining, these static
>>> patterns that emerge no longer apply to experience. They are concepts,
>>> not experience. They all come after experience. They are not
>>> experience itself.
>> 
>> And ultimately I agree..
> 
> Dan:
> I don't see it that way but if you say so...

I do. Ultimately.. 

>>>>>> Somehow though, you seem to to want to avoid sq and continually point to DQ..
>>>>> 
>>>>> Dan:
>>>>> Of course I don't. These words, these thoughts, they are all
>>>>> intellectual quality patterns. That's all we have to discuss the MOQ.
>>>>> But we don't experience static quality, as such. Static quality is
>>>>> always removed from reality.
>>>> 
>>>> We do experience static quality. Static quality describes nothing! Static quality comes from nothing! They are but two sides of the same experience coin.
>>> 
>>> Dan:
>>> But David:
>>> 
>>> "In this plain of understanding static patterns of value are divided
>>> into four systems: inorganic patterns, biological patterns, social
>>> patterns and intellectual patterns. They are exhaustive. That's all
>>> there are. If you construct an encyclopedia of four topics-Inorganic,
>>> Biological, Social and Intellectual-nothing is left out. No "thing,"
>>> that is. Only Dynamic Quality, which cannot be described in any
>>> encyclopedia, is absent." [Lila]
>>> 
>>> Static quality patterns describe everything. The only 'thing' left out
>>> is Dynamic Quality, or experience, which cannot be described. Static
>>> quality patterns describe our whole world. How can you say they
>>> describe nothing?
>> 
>> Because as mentioned earlier, static quality comes from nothing..
> 
> Dan:
> So experience is nothing? Do you really mean to say that?

Yes. Remember how I keep telling you that even though you'd like us to fully disagree - I don't disagree with you..  Your perspective is but one side of a two sided MOQ coin… 

>>>>>> You say to me that "I don't believe you are asking the right question my friend" and continually ask me to "See.".
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> This is like a Mystic who claims that the only goal to life is to escape from the suffering of static quality.  And you've questioned this.  But this is in contradiction to the final page of Lila(among others) where Pirsig concludes that if he had to sum up the MOQ it would be in the sentence "Good is a noun."   We use words and they describe qualities.   Static qualities.  Static things which exist just as nouns do.  We cannot avoid this. So let's try and get quality as good as we can?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Dan:
>>>>> I am unsure what you are saying here. If you do not wish to form a
>>>>> better understanding of the MOQ then, if I might be so bold as to ask,
>>>>> what are you doing here?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Is our purpose here one of working toward an agreement so far as it
>>>>> pertains to the MOQ? I think so. I am unsure what it is you think I
>>>>> have questioned but I assure you I am acting in a rational manner so
>>>>> far as this discussion group goes.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I really don't need lectures telling me that we use words and that
>>>>> static patterns of quality exist. Of course they do. Where on earth do
>>>>> you get the idea I said otherwise? This is why I tell you wake up! You
>>>>> seem to be in some kind of stupor.
>>>> 
>>>> Very simple.. How does something exist if we don't experience it?
>>> 
>>> Dan:
>>> You have it backwards. These 'things' arise from experience. We do not
>>> experience them. Ask the right questions and the answers become much
>>> more clear.
>> 
>> So my question is wrong? How so? I think it's pretty obvious that the MOQ is pure empiricism. And a pure empiricism by definition would say that if we don't experience something then it doesn't exist..
> 
> Dan:
> I just told you. You have it backwards. Empiricism is a collection of
> intellectual patterns of quality arising from experience. Things do
> not exist prior to experience. See? You are asking the question
> backwards. It is a low value question. Why not ask high value
> questions instead?

It is a high quality idea to assume that objects exist before we experience them..    Ultimately, you're right. No thing exists before we experience it.  But I'm not only interested in the search for a single ultimate truth.. I'm interested in what's good.  We cannot avoid things.. We cannot avoid the quality of SOM or our scientific thinking either.. You do so at your peril… There are two sides to this MOQ coin not one..

>>>>>>>> It is pure empiricism.  The MOQ says that the most fundamental thing or no thing we experience is Dynamic Quality.  Everything else which follows from that is static quality.  But does the MOQ say that we *only* experience Dynamic Quality?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Dan:
>>>>>>> In my opinion you are looking at it wrongly. I tried to show you this
>>>>>>> earlier where I said that when one seeks to experience experience
>>>>>>> they're on a fool's mission. The MOQ says experience is seen as
>>>>>>> synonymous with Dynamic Quality. With each breaking moment we
>>>>>>> experience the world and then later we package it into neat little
>>>>>>> patterns that seem to represent experience. Of course those patterns
>>>>>>> can never capture experience in its fullness.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> So to answer your question: no. The MOQ doesn't say we only experience
>>>>>>> Dynamic Quality. Do we experience experience? Or do we experience the
>>>>>>> experience of experience? See how that goes? The MOQ says Dynamic
>>>>>>> Quality and experience are seen as synonymous. I don't believe you are
>>>>>>> asking the right question, my friend.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Here you are pointing at DQ.  I see DQ Dan.  I also see sq.  We(static folks) experience static quality and it exists.   Yes, static quality is created as a result of DQ.  Yes some thing comes from no thing.  But these things, like this keyboard which I type on now exist and are real and I experience them.  They are not imaginary or illusory as a Buddhist might say.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Dan:
>>>>> The keyboard, these words, the world, all come after experience. You
>>>>> do not see Dynamic Quality. You 'see' static representations of
>>>>> experience that are created in your brain and which you take to be
>>>>> real.
>>>>> 
>>>>> You asked: But does the MOQ say that we *only* experience Dynamic Quality?
>>>>> 
>>>>> This isn't the proper question to be asking, though. The MOQ says
>>>>> Dynamic Quality and experience are seen as synonymous. So to ask if we
>>>>> *only* experience Dynamic Quality is a bit nonsensical. If experience
>>>>> and Dynamic Quality are seen as synonymous, how does one experience
>>>>> experience? I do not believe you are grasping this fundamental point
>>>>> and until you do it seems pointless to proceed.
>>>> 
>>>> When I say "we" experience Dynamic Quality. And "we" experience static quality.  If we were to presume I was speaking SOM then it would seem that I am implying that there are pre-existing subjects or object which 'experience' something.
>>>> 
>>>> But the MOQ isn't opposed to SOM. I know the MOQ. I know that there are no pre-existing subjects and pre-existing objects. But I also know that sometimes it is good to think that there are..
>>>> 
>>>> "The difference is rooted in the historic chicken-and-egg controversy over whether matter came first and produces ideas, or ideas come first and produce what we know as matter. The MOQ says that Quality comes first, which produces ideas, which produce what we know as matter. The scientific community that has produced Complementarity, almost invariably presumes that matter comes first and produces ideas. However, as if to further the confusion, the MOQ says that the idea that matter comes first is a high quality idea! I think Bohr would say that philosophic idealism (i.e. ideas before matter) is a viable philosophy since complementarity allows multiple contradictory views to coexist."
>>>> 
>>>> The key here is the Quality of these ideas.  Sometimes it's good to say that "we" experience something or other. This is the quality of static quality. If we don't say we experience it, then how does it (statically) exist?
>>> 
>>> Dan:
>>> We define it.
>> 
>> Do we experience those definitions? No? Then how do the definitions exist?
> 
> Dan:
> No. They arise from experience.

Ultimately they do.. But what about objects?  Isn't it sometimes a good idea to say they exist before we experience them? 

>>>>>>>> "This first division of the Metaphysics of Quality now covered the spectrum of experience from primitive mysticism(DQ) to quantum mechanics(inorganic patterns). What remained for Phaedrus to do next was fill in the gaps as carefully and methodically as he could."
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> "But with a Metaphysics of Quality the empirical experience is not an experience of 'objects.' It's an experience of value patterns produced by a number of sources, not just inorganic patterns. "
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> So Pirsig also explains how these two experiences of DQ and sq are different..
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> "But it is not until the baby is several months old that he will begin to really understand enough about that enormously complex correlation of sensations and boundaries and desires called an object to be able to reach for one. This object will not be a primary experience. It will be a complex pattern of static values derived from primary experience(DQ)."
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Notice how he uses the word primary? It is this primary experience which is DQ but that doesn't mean that we don't experience static quality or that it is illusory as a Buddhist would say..
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Dan:
>>>>>>> I think it is good to use the qualifier 'primary' with experience to
>>>>>>> help illustrate what he is getting at. Note how he says: This object
>>>>>>> (pattern of value) will not be a primary experience. See? It is
>>>>>>> derived from experience. It (static quality) is a memory of
>>>>>>> experience, not experience itself.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Yes. You are continually pointing me towards DQ.  I can see that DQ is ultimately primary experience and no thing else really exists.   In fact, you are just telling me right back here what I said to you.  I agree with you that DQ is primary and all that we experience. But here we are.. Looking at computer screens and typing to one another and living out our static lives, full of static things.    These are static things and exist and are real and we experience them.  They come from this *primary* experience(DQ) but we experience these things as well.. They are as real as rocks… or so the expression goes.  In the MOQ we experience includes both DQ *and* sq.  Yes sq comes from DQ but we still experience sq.  This is what I'm pointing towards.  An understanding of the MOQ which says that we experience DQ *and* static quality and they are both real and not illusory.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Dan:
>>>>> It depends upon the definition of experience, I suppose. I do not see
>>>>> the need to belabor the point any further, so if it works for you,
>>>>> fine.
>>>> 
>>>> It doesn't really depend on a definition of experience.. I'm all for simply describing experience..
>>> 
>>> Dan:
>>> That's what we do. We describe experience. Once the description arises
>>> it is no longer experience, however.
>> 
>> Right, it is an intellectual pattern of value. A different experience than what it was describing but an experience nonetheless.
> 
> Dan:
> Well, I can see my job here is done. :)

Or mine?

>>>>>>>>>>>> 'Just fixing' is the same as 'Just sitting'.   The goal for both things, indeed everything, if we are to prescribe one, is to move *away* from all mechanistic static patterns.  A broken bike is a low quality very static situation… you aren't going anywhere…  Likewise someone who is beginning Zazen practice, if they are anything like me, will likely begin by being very static and constantly thinking! Tick tick tick the mind goes… But naturally the mind will wind down..
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Dan:
>>>>>>>>>>> Left to its own devices the mind will quite naturally run amok. If
>>>>>>>>>>> this were not so, what would be the point of practicing zazen or
>>>>>>>>>>> meditation?
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Yes, that is why I say that this is what occurs naturally *when* someone is practicing Zazen.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> So do you not agree that a major point of the book is that there is Zen in the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance?  I describe above why I think they are similar.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Dan:
>>>>>>>>> It depends upon who is doing the motorcycle maintenance, doesn't it? I
>>>>>>>>> think one of the points of ZMM was the contrast between those who make
>>>>>>>>> an art out of doing motorcycle maintenance and those who do not. Note
>>>>>>>>> that John Sutherland was an artist, a musician, and a very good one at
>>>>>>>>> that. And yet he had no inclination to do his own motorcycle
>>>>>>>>> maintenance. Was there zen in the artistry of his music? Who can say?
>>>>>>>>> He must have found his moment, I should think. Is there zen in the art
>>>>>>>>> of motorcycle maintenance? Who can say? Perhaps that's why the book is
>>>>>>>>> called Zen AND the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Right.  Does a dog have a Buddha nature? Answer the question and you lose your own quality… You're right - it's not smart for me to say that there is Zen IN the art of anything.   But using the MOQ we can say that DQ can be found in anything if you bring yourself to this present moment and 'just do it'.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Dan:
>>>>>>> As long as it is understood that Dynamic Quality is the breaking
>>>>>>> moment. It is always there so there is really nothing to be found.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Dynamic Quality isn't a 'breaking moment'.  Dynamic Quality isn't any thing.  It's not even my saying that.  But you already know that, and if you're not short of something, it's pointing people like myself towards DQ. But I think perhaps this is why you seem to not want to say that experience includes both static quality and DQ because of this incorrect analogy so I'll repeat.. Dynamic Quality isn't the breaking moment.  Dynamic Quality isn't anything! It's precisely, not this, not that.  It's not even that expression saying so.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Dan:
>>>>> So what are we debating here? If Dynamic Quality isn't anything then
>>>>> of course we cannot experience it. So according to what you say, we
>>>>> don't experience Dynamic Quality at all. We experience static quality.
>>>>> We experience a world of objects that impinge on our subjective
>>>>> senses. Sound familiar?
>>>> 
>>>> That's right.  There's a riddle there.. If DQ isn't anything, how do we experience it? Things have to be 'something' to experience them don't they?
>>> 
>>> Dan:
>>> No! Things do not exist prior to experience! They emerge from experience.
>> 
>> I was following your logic where you write above: "If Dynamic Quality isn't anything then of course we cannot experience it."
> 
> Dan:
> Please read your words that I was responding to. It isn't my logic. It
> is yours. It is a useful technique. By repeating what you said I was
> attempting to show you how it is faulty. And now you see that it is
> indeed faulty.

Okay.

> 
>> This is an anti transcendental DQ statement and I think it's wrong.  From a static quality perspective - Dynamic Quality isn't anything.. It's kinda like a giant 'mu'.  Not this not that…  But as you know there is a different 'understanding'..
> 
> Dan:
> There is no such thing as a "DQ statement." But even if there was, it
> is YOUR statement! So now you think you are wrong. That's good. That
> means we're getting somewhere, right?

Unfortunately I don't think that I am 'wrong'..    But it was wrong for me to say that your perspective was wrong.. It's not wrong.. In fact it's ultimately correct.   But there is another perspective which says that experience includes static quality..

>>>> I think this question is the key the koan though.  No they don't have to 'be something' to experience them.  Why? Because we start with *experience*. Then things exist - not the other way around.  That is how we experience DQ.
>>> 
>>> Dan:
>>> We don't experience Dynamic Quality. In the MOQ, Dynamic Quality
>>> becomes synonymous with experience.
>> 
>> Right. From a Dynamic understanding… again no disagreement.. But there is another static quality perspective where DQ is transcendent and the goal..  the gate to pass through..  This perspective is also part of the MOQ.
> 
> Dan:
> Experience isn't transcendent. It is right here! You know that every
> single moment.

That's one perspective.. There is another 'unenlightened' perspective which is spoken about in the gateless gate analogy.. Remember that perspective?  Why is DQ the goal?

>>>>> You seem to be saying that Robert Pirsig is wrong: the MOQ does not
>>>>> see experience and Dynamic Quality as being synonymous. To even say so
>>>>> is pointless. All we experience is static quality since that is all
>>>>> there is.
>>>>> 
>>>>> But this is precisely how the MOQ works to expand on rationality. It
>>>>> says subject and objects--patterns of value-- are secondary to
>>>>> experience; they are concepts that arise from experience, not
>>>>> experience itself. Subjects and objects, patterns of value, none of
>>>>> these things exist prior to experience.
>>>> 
>>>> By talking about the MOQ right now - we have broken up DQ into the two static terms DQ and sq.   So neither DQ or sq actually exists prior to experience either..  It's easy to forget that when we talk about DQ we are actually using static quality. We are 'catching that which cannot be caught'.  So how do we solve this riddle? Does DQ exist if it doesn't actually exist prior to experience?  The answer to this riddle is above.
>>> 
>>> Dan:
>>> Well, if Dynamic Quality and experience become synonymous then to say
>>> Dynamic Quality doesn't exist prior to experience is more than a bit
>>> confusing. And yes, I realize when we talk about Dynamic Quality we
>>> use static quality. That is a given, I should think. So in the MOQ we
>>> do not experience Dynamic Quality nor do we experience static quality.
>>> Dynamic Quality becomes synonymous with experience.
>>> 
>> 
>> Right. From one perspective. But there's another one where DQ is the goal..  It's the 'undefined betterness' which leads us and people like the Brujo to better things..
> 
> Dan:
> I think there is experience and there is that which comes later and
> you are confusing the two.

If I was confusing the two I would say that sq is experience and DQ isn't experience.. But I don't say that..  I am clearly stating that, as explained by Pirsig, there are two perspective of Zen and the MOQ - not one.  The enlightened and the unenlightened.. The Big Self and the small self.. The Dynamic understanding and the static point of view..   

In fact, you get confused by this in your discussion with Pirsig..

"DG:
I was referring to your statement: “The Buddhists would say it [the concept of “I”] is certainly central to a concept of reality but it is not central to or even a part of reality itself.” It may be that I am interpreting your statement incorrectly, but it appears to me that the Buddhists are saying reality itself is not a concept or an intellectual pattern of value.
For instance, a materialist might dream that someday science will develop a theory of everything. On the other hand, an idealist might tend to side with the Buddhists in saying intellectual concepts of reality are not central to or even part of reality itself? That we will never develop a theory of everything? That there’s no chance we can ever intellectually know reality?

RMP:
The confusion here seems to result from the two languages of Buddhism, the language of the Buddha’s world and language of everyday life. In the language of everyday life, reality and intellect are different. From the language of the Buddha’s world, they are the same, since there is no intellectual division that governs the Buddha’s world."

Again, notice how he talks about two different languages? In the language of everyday life - reality and intellect are different…  This language of everyday life includes things like Metaphysics… A Metaphysics which describes a 'reality' which exists before it.

>>>> We experience things all the time don't we?
>>> 
>>> Dan:
>>> No! In the MOQ experience and Dynamic Quality become synonymous.
>> 
>> Right. In one sense.
> 
> Dan:
> In the MOQ sense! What else are we talking about here?

The two 'understandings' of the MOQ.

>>>> Those things exist don't they? These *things* by their nature are static yes? Some static quality experiences other static quality. Can you at least agree with that?
>>> 
>>> Dan:
>>> Saying things exist and saying we experience them is two different
>>> ideas. These things emerge from experience. They do not exist prior to
>>> experience. What may be even more confusing is that they do not
>>> not-exist either. There is absolutely nothing we can say about
>>> anything prior to experience. So no, again, we do not agree!
>>> 
>> 
>> Okay.. Can't say I disagree..
> 
> Dan:
> Don't you mean you can't say you agree?

I agree though..  There's two sides to the coin… You are looking at the green side of the apple and saying 'The apple is green!' - is that wrong? No. But there is also another side of the apple which is red..

>>>>>>>>> Dan:
>>>>>>>>> I would say there is no endpoint to meditation. It may or may not
>>>>>>>>> bring us closer to experience depending upon the ability of the
>>>>>>>>> practitioner but that is not an endpoint. Experience is like a river
>>>>>>>>> always flowing from here to there. It has no endpoint.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> The MOQ does have an endpoint. It is a metaphysics for ordering our
>>>>>>>>> experience but it is not experience. Robert Pirsig says that writing a
>>>>>>>>> metaphysics is a degenerate activity. Is zen a degenerate activity
>>>>>>>>> too?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I agree with this - if we create a distinction between experience and primary experience and say..
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> "It is a metaphysics for ordering our experience but it is not primary experience."
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Dan:
>>>>>>> I don't think that is necessary as long as we go along with the notion
>>>>>>> that in the MOQ, Dynamic Quality and experience are seen as
>>>>>>> synonymous. A metaphysics cannot be primary experience. That is a
>>>>>>> given in that it is a collection of intellectual patterns of value.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> We experience a metaphysics. That metaphysics, like all things, has come about as a result of primary experience.  Where's the contradiction?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Dan:
>>>>> We do not experience a metaphysics. We intellectually construct a
>>>>> metaphysics and use it to order these symbolic representations we take
>>>>> to be reality. Experience is ever-flowing. A metaphysics is by
>>>>> definition a set of intellectual patterns.
>>>> 
>>>> Yes. Which are part of  'experience'.
>>> 
>>> Dan:
>>> No! Intellectual patterns EMERGE from experience! They are not experience!
>> 
>> Intellectual patterns can be experienced in an everyday understanding of things…
> 
> Dan:
> In the everyday world of subjects and objects, yes. And if that is
> what you want, then so be it.

I don't 'want' it.  It's unavoidable.. You're stuck in it too.. This is the other 'understanding' of the MOQ. That static point of view..   Ultimately experience isn't intellectual or anything else definable.. 

"But the answer to all this, he thought, was that a ruthless, doctrinaire avoidance of degeneracy is a degeneracy of another sort. That's the degeneracy fanatics are made of. Purity, identified, ceases to be purity. Objections to pollution are a form of pollution. The only person who doesn't pollute the mystic reality of the world with fixed metaphysical meanings is a person who hasn't yet been born — and to whose birth no thought has been given. The rest of us have to settle for being something less pure. Getting drunk and picking up bar-ladies and writing metaphysics is a part of life." - Lila

>>>>>> Right. And perhaps I should highlight it here so that you stop arguing with a straw man.. I AGREE WITH YOU HERE. My point is that a better distinction can be made(as it is in the MOQ) between our experience of Dynamic Quality being *primary* experience and our experience of everyday ordinary events like typing on a computer as simply an experience.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Dan:
>>>>> There is only experience. You are making it harder than it has to be.
>>>>> How is that better?
>>>> 
>>>> Because it matches our experience better.   It would be nice to say that all experience is just DQ. That's it. End of story.  But that's just not the case.
>>> 
>>> Dan:
>>> Just? Just? Do you even realize what you're saying? Just?
>> 
>> Yes. It's part of the title. I think there is more to experience than 'just' DQ. That's my whole point.
> 
> Dan:
> Well, again, if Dynamic Quality and experience become synonymous, then
> your point doesn't seem to hold much value. You seem to insist on
> experiencing a world of objects that exist prior to that experience.
> Therefore you believe there is more to experience than 'just DQ.' Is
> that what you're saying?
> 
> Instead, the MOQ says that these objects, these patterns of value, do
> not exist prior to experience. Every 'thing' emerges from experience.

Right I agree with that..  Objects do not exist prior to experience..

Now before you spit your chips - the MOQ also says that it is a *good* idea to think that these objects exist prior to our ideas about them…  

"Within the MOQ, the idea that static patterns of value start with the inorganic level is considered to be a good idea. "  - RMP

Clearly both are ideas - so why mention this?   Because it's Quality first, then ideas…   It thus depends on which quality experience your talking about - whether it exists prior to another static quality experience(is static quality or Dynamic Quality)...

>>>>>>>>> Dan:
>>>>>>>>> As I said earlier, in the MOQ experience comes first. Experience is
>>>>>>>>> seen as synonymous with Dynamic Quality. Static quality emerges from
>>>>>>>>> experience. Static quality isn't some pre-existing set of patterns
>>>>>>>>> waiting to be experienced. Think of the hot stove example in Lila.
>>>>>>>>> Should a person sit upon a hot stove it isn't the heat that gets them
>>>>>>>>> off the stove. It is a dim apprehension of they know not what. It is
>>>>>>>>> only later that they label it heat and cuss about it.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Right.  DQ is primary(as Pirsig would say) experience.  A mystic would get off the hot stove faster than a scientist.  But that's not to say that the experiences of a scientist when he looks at inorganic particles under a microscope are un-real or not experienced either.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Dan:
>>>>>>> As soon as experience is relegated to static quality pattens it is no
>>>>>>> longer experience. It is a memory of experience.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Until we 'experience' those memories as intellectual patterns of value.  Or are you going to tell me we don't experience intellectual patterns of value?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Dan:
>>>>> That's what I've been saying all along. Did you just realize that? If
>>>>> the MOQ sees Dynamic Quality and experience as synonymous, then we do
>>>>> not experience intellectual patterns of value. Intellectual patterns
>>>>> of quality are symbolic representations of experience, not experience
>>>>> itself. If you do not agree with Robert Pirsig's premise, then you do
>>>>> not agree with the MOQ.
>>>> 
>>>> I agree with what you write.  Static quality is always after this primary experience. Yes.  When we break up experience we break it up into sq and DQ. DQ is the source of sq experience.. but it is still all experience nonetheless..  I don't see why there has to be one 'true' experience.  Why can't experience be both DQ and sq?  Interestingly - the quality of an idea is how well it matches our experience.  In this case, I think it matches our experience well to say that both DQ and sq exist and are a part of experience.
>>> 
>>> Dan:
>>> No, you do NOT agree with what I am saying! How can you even think
>>> that? We do not break experience into 2 parts. There is experience and
>>> there there is that which emerges from experience. Once defined,
>>> static quality no longer applies to Dynamic Quality, or experience.
>> 
>> Yes, but there is also static quality which is not intellectual is there not?
> 
> Dan:
> You are obfuscating the issue here by attempting to change the
> discussion. I do not believe I ever said there is only intellectual
> quality.

How does any other static quality exist if it isn't experienced? 

>>>>>> We experience static quality. If we didn't experience static quality then it isn't a stretch to say that it doesn't really exist.   And then it isn't really a stretch to want to continually point to DQ and want to avoid applying the MOQ to everyday life because 'it is about things we don't really experience anyway….' And of course, this is what you continually want to do. Please try and see the quality of another perspective..
>>>>> 
>>>>> Dan:
>>>>> I am unsure how you know what I want but be that as it may... all I am
>>>>> doing is pointing out the redundancy in your statements. If you wish
>>>>> to believe there is a world of objects that you as a subject
>>>>> experience then by all means do so. But you are making a mistake when
>>>>> you think that is what the MOQ is saying.
>>>>> 
>>>>> It is not. And we are not here to consider other perspectives. We are
>>>>> here to consider the perspective of the MOQ. You seem to enjoy heaping
>>>>> ridicule on me by twisting my words. That's okay. I'm used to it,
>>>>> which is why I rarely participate here any longer. As I said, I had
>>>>> hopes for better but, oh well…
>>>> 
>>>> Again, the MOQ doesn't oppose SOM.  SOM thinking can be quite good.  In fact it's built into the structure of the MOQ within a larger perspective.. .  I've never said that I think there are pre-existing subjects and objects.  I do however, think that it can be *valuable* at times to think so.  This is the distinction of mine which I am trying to make... Such as when I look at this computer in front of me. I don't think that it is a figment of my imagination.  I think that I experience it.  It's a good idea to think that it exists before I think about it. In the MOQ there isn't one *right* answer about what's fundamental as you seem to think there is.  The MOQ allows multiple competing ideas to exist simultaneously.
>>> 
>>> Dan:
>>> So you believe the MOQ espouses the notion that anything goes. That
>>> explains a great deal.
>> 
>> No. I think that the MOQ explains how ideas exist as static intellectual quality.  How good a philosophy or a scientific idea is - is how well it explains our experience.  Some philosophies are good at explaining some things, other philosophies are good at explaining other things.. We don't have to determine the 'real' philosophy.. we can just appreciate each philosophy for what is good about it...
> 
> Dan:
> And if it is of low value?

Then throw it out.. Bad ideas still exist however - as low intellectual quality. 

Notice how something with low quality still includes the word 'quality'?  There is quality in all things.

>>>>>>>> But if I say that we can experience DQ after we experience sq then that seems to be a contradiction - for DQ is the source of all things. But it is not a contradiction when we realise that the term DQ itself is a contradiction.  The reason why we use this term 'Dynamic Quality' is to intellectually value it and place it within a metaphysics which closely resembles our experience.  Included in resembling our experience is saying that we can experience *both* DQ and sq.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Dan:
>>>>>>> You seem to be making Dynamic Quality into a kind of object or pattern
>>>>>>> of value that can be experienced. But objects and patterns of value
>>>>>>> are secondary to experience. If it helps someone to understand this,
>>>>>>> then by all means use the term primary experience. But once it is
>>>>>>> understood that experience and Dynamic Quality are seen as synonymous
>>>>>>> in the MOQ there is no reason to qualify experience in such a way. I
>>>>>>> think it confuses the issue.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Well naturally here I disagree. I think it confuses the issue to only relegate experience to be synonymous with Dynamic Quality and that's it.  DQ is primary experience yes.  But we still experience every other thing which isn't DQ. This is why Pirsig saw it necessary to create a static Metaphysics.  If we don't experience sq, what does it matter? It doesn't. This is what a mystic will say and on this point they are somewhat wrong.  The reason why static quality matters is because we cannot avoid it. While ultimately we primarily only experience DQ -  pretending that is *all* we experience is wrong. There is this whole other unavoidable world of picking and choosing which exists whether a mystic likes it or not.   Good is a noun. So we might as well get our picking and choosing as good as we possibly can.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Dan:
>>>>> It seems apparent that you believe I am acting on a pretense so I am
>>>>> unsure why you bother answering me.
>>>> 
>>>> I don't think that at all. I have found your responses honest and well cared for.  I wouldn't continue this discussion for this long if I didn't think so.
>>> 
>>> Dan:
>>> I re-read your previous statement. You clearly said I am pretending
>>> that Dynamic Quality and experience become synonymous. I offered a
>>> quote defending that notion yet you persist in saying that not only am
>>> I confused but Robert Pirsig is confusing his own metaphysics by
>>> saying so. So, I feel justified in asking again, if you believe I am
>>> acting on a pretense, why on earth do you continue engaging me?
>> 
>> Because I don't think that you are acting on pretense.. I think you are making a lot of sense actually.. Just I think there is another perspective which you are neglecting by focusing on ultimate DQ all the time.. that's all..
> 
> Dan:
> I am not focusing on Dynamic Quality all the time. I have said
> repeatedly that static quality emerges from Dynamic Quality. I have
> quoted Lila where Robert Pirsig says the four levels of static quality
> make up an encyclopedia of all there is, except for Dynamic Quality,
> which cannot be defined in any encyclopedia. So what is it you believe
> I am neglecting?

The fact that included in 'experience' is static quality.  Dynamic Quality is BOTH undefinable AND infinitely definable - as definition(static quality) never exhausts it.

>>> Dan:
>>> There is experience and there is that which comes later. How much
>>> simpler can it be?
>> 
>> That which comes later must be part of experience or it doesn't exist.
> 
> Dan:
> Well, yes, it is a memory of experience. But it isn't experience. It's
> a snapshot, a still frame. Experience is like a river forever flowing
> while these static patterns are like a cup we have dipped from that
> river. In a very real sense, you are right. That which comes later no
> longer exists but as a memory. Experience has flowed on leaving behind
> it these memories we often times mistake for experience itself.

Right…. all our words are just descriptions of that which can never be caught..   I agree..  and I think that this is the 'ultimate' side of the coin..  The 'fundamental' side of the coin.. But there is another side 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The mystic on the other hand strives to set aside thought. Working a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> koan has nothing to do with rationality. A typical Westerner may think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that working a koan is the same as thinking about it but that isn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so. Even if the practitioner takes on a koan in a rational way it soon
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> becomes apparent that there is nothing rational about it. So they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> either give up or give in.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Right. But is that rational activity not a part of the discovering process of the answer for the koan.  As you say, we will rationally try and answer it and try and try, and until we give up(not good), or give in.  But give in to what? To DQ? Isn't that the whole point of the Koan? Koans point you to that place where you cannot rationally solve something.  But in order to understand that you must be rational to begin with.. see?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dan:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dynamic Quality is synonymous with experience. We cover 'it' up with
>>>>>>>>>>>>> thought. So thinking about a koan will only take one away, not bring
>>>>>>>>>>>>> one closer.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> If that is so then why have koans? Why do they exist? Aren't they just a distraction?  I don't think that they are. I think they are there to be thought about..  They point to that non rational place where you can't solve anything..  Think and think and think about them but they have no immediate answer… Like sitting, the mind will start on them at a great pace thinking about how to solve the riddle. What becomes more and more apparent by thinking about them though, is that the answer to this riddle is not rational and one will become more and more acquainted with what is the source of this riddle - DQ.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Dan:
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know why there are koans. I should think some zen master in
>>>>>>>>>>> the past thought there was some value to them but I don't know for
>>>>>>>>>>> sure. If one thinks about solving a koan they are only covering up
>>>>>>>>>>> that for which they seek, in my opinion. But that was my point. There
>>>>>>>>>>> is no need for koans. They are a crutch, a tool, a method of pointing
>>>>>>>>>>> to that which cannot be pointed to, I suppose. Once used they are
>>>>>>>>>>> discarded as unnecessary accoutrements.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> So you don't know why there are Koans but at the same time you recognise that they are a tool and a method of pointing to that which cannot be pointed to?
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Dan:
>>>>>>>>> Well, as I said, that is what I suppose. Whether they are or not, I
>>>>>>>>> don't really know.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Okay. Well I agree with you and think that they are a tool and a method of pointing to that which cannot be pointed to.  They show point to DQ with the intellect by showing that it is not intellectual.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Dan:
>>>>>>> Experience is not intellectual until later. Then it is no longer
>>>>>>> experience. It is a memory of experience.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Unless of course we experience intellectual values. Like the intellectual values we are discussing now - or are you going to tell me we don't experience them? I get it. There's nothing but DQ. But that's not the whole story and this is supported by the MOQ and written about by Pirsig
>>>>> 
>>>>> Dan:
>>>>> No, I do not believe you 'get it.' I cannot help but feel a growing
>>>>> sense of frustration. Can you point to one instance where I said
>>>>> "there's nothing but DQ"? Of course not, because that is not what I am
>>>>> saying.
>>>> 
>>>> You've said that experience is DQ.  How do you justify the existence of static quality if it isn't part of experience? I thought the MOQ is based on experience? To me, if something isn't part of experience it doesn't exist.
>>> 
>>> Dan:
>>> Static patterns emerge from experience. The MOQ is a better way of
>>> ordering reality. It organizes everything into four static quality
>>> levels. But the MOQ is NOT to be confused with experience itself!
>>> Experience is ever-flowing. The MOQ is a static representation, a
>>> still-shot, a map of experience, but it is NOT experience!
>>> 
>>> Also, I do not believe I ever said experience is DQ. That is something
>>> you said I said. No, I said in the MOQ, Dynamic Quality and experience
>>> become synonymous. There is a difference and this might be the block
>>> over which you are stumbling. Or not.
>> 
>> Here's a big question which hopefully you will elaborate on: How is saying that DQ and experience become synonymous different to saying that DQ is experience?
> 
> Dan:
> By stating Dynamic Quality IS experience we are defining it. By
> stating that within the MOQ Dynamic Quality and experience become
> synonymous we are associating the terms without defining them outside
> of having the same implications. Does that help answer your question?

Yes it does.  But however 'loosely' you would like the association it is still an association nevertheless…  Like it or not, we cannot help but define DQ as static quality..   So what Pirsig did was separate that ineffable Dynamic Quailty and left it on its own as 'Dynamic Quality'..  After putting aside the ineffable DQ - he then proceeded to do the degenerate intellectual thing and define Quality as static quality..  This makes the MOQ less degenerate than your typically intellectual construct, but degenerate nonetheless...

Thanks again Dan,

-David.