[MD] Replacing SOM

[David Morey]

Hi Arlo

When a shrimp identifies its mate is this pre-intellectual or not?

I've always assumed that identification, pattern, regularity, sameness
is something that goes on pre-intellectually in all forms of interaction and
information exchange in the cosmos, in molecules, in life before intellect
comes along, and this is all pre-intellectual SQ. Sure Pirsig does not state
this obvious fact of experience in these terms but I assume it is what he
was pointing his finger at. Do you really think there are no static 
qualities
in experience before intellect, words, concepts? What are colours, shapes,
smells, feelings if not SQ? I find it hard to make sense of the MOQ without
pre-intellectual SQ, or make sense of the history of the cosmos prior
to human intellectual becoming if we adopt this strange way if interpreting
SQ as I see it.

If SQ did not exist before human being how does MOQ explain DNA? This
is making MOQ an idealism and non-realist, bad move I'd suggest, it is
anti-scientific too.

All the best
David M


-----Original Message----- 
From: ARLO JAMES BENSINGER JR
Sent: Friday, March 08, 2013 7:02 PM
To: moq discuss
Subject: Re: [MD] Replacing SOM

[Krimel]
I find it impossible to believe that Pirsig endorses the new MoQ 
terminological shift you endorse.

[Arlo]
I don't think Pirsig has to "endorse" anything here, he is quite clear, and 
by reading ZMM/LILA back to back its almost blindingly obvious that the 
Quality of ZMM is what is Dynamic Quality in LILA. Here are just a few 
excerpts from both, back to back, selected because the language around the 
terms is identical.

Dynamic Quality is the pre-intellectual cutting edge of reality. (LILA)

He simply meant that at the cutting edge of time, before an object can be 
distinguished, there must be a kind of nonintellectual awareness, which he 
called awareness of Quality.... This preintellectual reality is what Phædrus 
felt he had properly identified as Quality. (ZMM)

This object will not be a primary experience. It will be a complex pattern 
of static values derived from primary experience. (LILA)

Our structured reality is preselected on the basis of value, and really to 
understand structured reality requires an understanding of the value source 
from which it's derived. (ZMM)

The central reality of mysticism, the reality that Phaedrus had called 
"Quality" in his first book, is not a metaphysical chess piece. Quality 
doesn't have to be defined. You understand it without definition, ahead of 
definition. Quality is a direct experience independent of and prior to 
intellectual abstractions. (LILA)

Dynamic Quality, the source of all things, the pre-intellectual cutting edge 
of reality, always appears as "spur of the moment." Where else could it 
appear? (LILA)

Since all intellectually identifiable things must emerge from this 
preintellectual reality, Quality is the parent, the source of all subjects 
and objects. (ZMM)

In all of these, experience preceding conceptualization, indefinableness, 
parent, source, cutting edge, direct experience; all of these show quite 
clearly that there is no "terminological shift", endorsed by me or Pirsig. 
The quote has already been given as to why he abandoned the 
romantic/classical split, so I won't bother to restate that yet again.

[Krimel]
I quite agree there is a radical departure from Pirsig at stake here but you 
are confused if you think I am the one to have made it.

[Arlo]
Ah, right, is this where you follow Bo's lead and make Pirsig a weak 
interpreter of Pirsig, that Pirsig made a radical departure from himself and 
you are here to rescue his ideas? I think that roles been played here a few 
times, Krimel, it's been done and I am not really interested in yet another 
reboot of that franchise.

By the way, I missed your examples of the "downside of DQ", let me know what 
you think are some.

[Krimel]
What then is "wake"? Is DQ the water?

[Arlo]
To use the analogy, I'd say "DQ" is like the moment the water is disturbed. 
But like all analogies, it has weaknesses if you try to push for the exact 
"literal" correspondence. I shouldn't have to explain why that is...


Moq_Discuss mailing list
Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
Archives:
http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
http://moq.org/md/archives.html