[MD] Static patterns are ever-changing?!? i

[David Morey]

Hi DMB

dmb said: pure experience is a continuous flow of perceptions. 

What really kills me is that "percept" is just the singular form of "perception", just as "concept" is the singular form of "conception" or "conceptualization". 

DM: really,  well wouldn't you just Adam and Eve it (London born you know,  like John Oliver).  

Paul Williams also explains that dynamic reality itself is "just a flow of perceptions," that "there is only an ever-changing flow of perceptions".

DM: Well I have reached my final conclusion,  DMB you are just hopeless at explaining yourself! You have driven many of us crazy,  and most people have run away. I brought up the simple notion of pre-conceptual patterns and asked whether these are not a form if SQ? Here is what you should have said:

Hi David M

Many thanks for your query,  I understand why you ask this,  but after some years of thought and discussion,  a number of us have agreed that the best way to understand SQ is to limit it to concepts,  and obviously all concepts relate to patterns. Now obviously there is much more to experience than concepts,  but all other aspects of experience is best seen as DQ. Now what you are calling pre-conceptual patterns we prefer to see as just perceptions or percepts and are part of DQ and not use the word pattern as we want to retain that for SQ only where concepts and language and culture come into play (DM: can't see why the word pattern is to be excluded from perception but I'll just put that down to some neurosis as no reasons have been provided). Hope that answers your query.

DM: Thanks DMB that answers my question.


See how easy that is,  why do we always have to go through so much crap to get to this stage, why do you have to make such a drama about a simple query or question,  as if scripture was being undermined or the whole of logic has been trashed,  as if everyone so fails to follow things in exactly the same way as you. Can you really not follow what I have been asking,  are you so incapable of asking simple clarifying questions,  or seeing things from someone else's perspective. Dude who is really damaging this discussion group and chasing everyone off,  how about retiring,  you've had your time and with you around progress just is not being made, could you do that for the sake of the MOQ? You might think I am crazy and right out of order,  but something or other is causing the lack of progress round here. OK you might not want to go, you could perhaps take a holiday and see what happens,  would be an interesting experiment,  maybe all the old timers should, or maybe you could just change the tune,  the defensiveness,  the no one understands me complaints,  the attack style,  etc.

Sure I have dished some out,  but I am just trying to get you to think,  nothing personal.

Entirely up to you and Horse of course,  I am off to lurk only mode again for now. It is not all bad,  I have as usual learnt a few things in the last few weeks and clarified my thoughts,  but there is something very inefficient about the discussions round here,  elsewhere I have none of these problems,  a shame really,  as I really appreciate Pirsig and his ideas,  and this is the only place where we can discuss his ideas,  there is little interest in elite intellectual circles in Pirsig,  although I am actually working to change that and have a couple of well known world class thinkers nibbling at taking an interest in Pirsig on the go at the moment,  if they bite I will let you all know.

If I piss you off I sincerely apologise,  but the above is how I see things. Overall the understanding of Pirsig has been fantastically developed and deepened by this group, DMB your complaints seem to lose sight of this,  but like a typical political party all the fighting seems internal rather than directed at the poor millions stuck with SOM and unaware of a great alternative,  have a think about that if you can,  and what you can do to improve things. All the best folks,  I mean that.