[MD] 42

[Dan Glover]

Ron,

On Sat, Jan 11, 2014 at 7:47 AM, Ron Kulp <xacto at rocketmail.com> wrote:

> Hello Dan,
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Jan 11, 2014, at 3:35 AM, Dan Glover <daneglover at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hi John and Arlo,
> >
> > I don't know if either of you found the time to watch this video
> > recommended to us by Dave Buchanan:
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bEeAiVnGbM&feature=youtube_gdata_player
> >
> > What intrigued me was how Dr. Steiner talks about his father pointing him
> > in the direction of a career in academics rather than a profession in the
> > creative arts. I think Robert Pirsig goes on about this in ZMM as well.
> Are
> > academics and creativity mutually exclusive of each other?
> >
> Ron:
> I think if we keep in mind, what I
> Believe to be the focal point of
> RMPs work, that academics is
> An art form without exclusiveness
> (Freedom through constraint) that
> These feelings of hostility towards
> It would dissolve.
>

Dan:
I don't think Dr. Steiner exhibited any hostility toward academics and
neither did I. He merely made the point that at his father's urgings he
followed a teaching career rather than actively creating art. Thus my
question: are the two mutually exclusive?


>
> Dan:
> > I have a a few questions. Does academic schooling tend to breed out
> > creativity in students? It would appear (to me) that a child encountering
> > Vygotsky's zone of proximal development is being led to develop a skill
> set
> > deemed necessary by the instructor but is this in the best interest of
> the
> > child? Are teachers simply producing clones?
> >
> > Arlo's talk of accessing the student's development and moving it along
> > seems to indicate there are pre-designated parameters at work. Are these
> > parameters based upon the individual students or are they cookie-cutter
> > style textbook learning exercises designed to mimic rather than open new
> > vistas?
> >
> > Can creativity be taught? Or is the foundation of learning rooted in a
> kind
> > of monkey-seemonkey-do?
> >
> > Thank you for your thoughts,
> >
> > Ron:
> If we reference the 1961 paper to Edith Buchanan, ( and this is a
> Important document not only to
> Us but to philosophy in general)
> RMP suggests creativity can be taught and should be taught.
>

Dan:
>From the Freshman Paper on Quality:

"The classroom dilemma of saying what you want without producing
conformity is a dilemma that, I believe, has a solution.  The solution
lies in a common word which on first analysis seems as simple as the
word, "time," and which, on further inspection, turns out to be fully
as complex as that word, "time."  The word is quality.  When a student
asks what is wanted in English composition he should be told that what
is wanted is quality.  This seems ridiculously simple at first but it
is an often overlooked primitive concept that is absolutely necessary
to put across before a student can learn to write.

 "And it is astounding how many students arrive at the college
level with no understanding that there is such a thing as quality in
writing -- students who honestly and conscientiously believe that good
writing is a matter of pleasing different instructors, students who
believe it is a matter of being flowery, being grammatical, being
profound, being obedient -- being anything, except just plain good."

Dan comments:

I scribble a bit myself. Though I know quite a few other writers, many of them
are freelance journalists and magazine writers who are required to
write certain
content without regards to creativity. There is no doubt their writngs
are good.
But they consistently lack the creativity of something new and original. Even
the authors bemoan the fact that they would love to spend more time writing
creatively but their jobs forbid it.

We could say that quality pervades all good writings, whether it is for a
tech journal, a baseball player bio, or an original novel or short story.
Reading over the Freshman Paper on Quality, I see that Robert Pirsig
addresses creativity as that which is killed by conformity, or by going along
with the instructor.
My questions to Arlo and John were more along those lines. Are schools,
by their inherent nature, killing any creative ideas the student might entertain
by insisting they follow a curriculum? Are there any schools attempting to
follow the ideas put forth by Robert Pirsig in his paper to Edith Buchanan?



> I personally believe that the
> Academic bogeyman producing
> Cookie cutter clones is an impossible
> Fiction. It harkens on the rhetoric
> Produced by conservative right wing
> Ideology warning of collectivism and
> The fear of the loss of the individual.
> It leads to another sort of anti-intellectualism.
> An instructor in art school once
> Said to me that "you first need to
> Learn the rules before you can break them", but also there is the tea
> ceremony through rigid static patterns dynamic freedom is also found.
> Freedom through constraint.
> Arlo hits it on the head .
> I will add the caveat that improvement in this art is
> Of course of vital interest
> Not to be diminished by this
> Understanding.
>

Dan:
I take it then that you disagree with what Robert Pirsig said in his
Freshman Paper on Quality as well as in ZMM. He is espousing an impossible
fiction. I tend to disagree but then again I am not the best one to ask. I
am not a teacher nor will I ever be.
I do believe there is a danger when we begin thinking in terms of freedom
through constraint. Unless the instructor is well-versed in allowing
freedom in the guise of constraint, the student will only learn to satisfy
the instructor's demands. Unless they are exceptional the student will put
aside their own ideas as inferior to the more learned ones of the
instructor.

Thank you,

Dan

http://www.danglover.com


>
>
> On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 3:23 PM, ARLO JAMES BENSINGER JR <ajb102 at psu.edu
>wrote:
>
>> Hi John,
>>
>> I've seen this before, its an interesting endeavor. You may have seen
this
>> before, but this RSA Animate short touches on many of the same ideas:
>>
http://www.thersa.org/events/rsaanimate/animate/rsa-animate-changing-paradigms
>>
>> One note of caution: "opposed to professional academics and teacher's
>> unions". I think there is a pendulum swinging from "sage on the stage" to
>> "guide on the side" that has dismissed the role of the instructor too
far.
>> A "professional academic" is (or should be) someone who not only
>> understands the body of knowledge but also is skilled in pedagogy and
>> learning theories, someone who has the ability to access student
>> performance and keep the student moving forward (via what Vygotsky called
>> the Zone of Proximal Development). This "professional academic" is a
>> keystone species in this learning ecology, and even School 42 makes use
of
>> "professional academics" (even if it wants to try to define this away).
As
>> for "teacher's unions", while problems exist to be sure, these unions
(and
>> the concept of tenure) were formed to protect the integrity of the
>> intellectual level from social-capital forces. If you abolish these, you
>> better have a good suggestion for how this integrity can be pre
>> served.
>>
>> Final note: grade-less and degree-less. This will only happen when/if
>> economics (and its derivative social-status) are completely disentangled
>> from education. So long as many (if not most) view education as 'career
>> training', and see degrees as both economic and symbolic forms of social
>> capital, this will never happen. For what its worth, I personally don't
>> believe this is possible in a capitalist society, where these are used to
>> mark the 'worth' of someone's economic value.
>>
>> Arlo
>>
>> ----------
>>
>> Arlo Bensinger
>> Instructional Designer
>> College of Health and Human Development
>> 103A Henderson Building
>> Email: ajb102 at psu.edu
>> Phone: 863-6707
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "John Carl" <ridgecoyote at gmail.com>
>> To: "moq discuss" <moq_discuss at moqtalk.org>
>> Sent: Friday, January 10, 2014 3:58:22 PM
>> Subject: [MD] 42
>>
>>
>>
http://www.npr.org/2013/09/14/222319627/new-computer-school-upends-french-education-model
>>
>> I heard about this place the other day on the radio and was very
>> intrigued.  Maybe y'all have discussed it before because it certainly
>> aligns with Pirsig's grade-less and degree-less idea in education.
>>
>> I also was intrigued because I have a 12 year old boy who is deep into
>> computer games and virtual reality and I'd like to get him into some kind
>> of training program that would harness his interest.  Schools at the k12
>> level just don't teach computing right.  And kids, boys especially, seem
to
>> have a strong drive in that area from a young age.  And where else is my
>> kid going to find a career?  My own skills in construction are useless
>> because the vast numbers of manufacturing jobs lost to China were
converted
>> to construction jobs during the Bush bubble and now the field is so
>> over-crowded its ridiculous.  I'm reminded of my nephew Jason who grew up
>> immersed in computer games as a kid.  We all predicted it would be a bad
>> thing - he wasn't getting any real world experience.  Now he's got a
great
>> job for the nsa and travels the world.  But Jason was home schooled and
>> allowed to spend a lot of time learning programming.  Most kids are
forced
>> by the school system to learn a bunch of stuff that's useless to them.
>>
>> And on that note, the school 42 in France is virulently opposed by the
>> professional academics and teacher's unions.  But it gives me hope.  If
it
>> can happen in France, why not here in the land of the free?
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