[MD] A Platonist and a Sophist discuss Quality

[David Harding]

  Hi Ron,


Thanks for the comment and taking the time to read the article and can’t say I disagree.  


Truth has played an important part in our last couple of Millenia without which it’s doubtful we’d be much beyond where we were.  It was the importance and primacy that Socrates and Plato placed on truth irrespective of Quality that was dishonest and about time we corrected this mistake.


Thanks again,


David.








> On Apr 5, 2015, at 4:19 AM, Ron Kulp <xacto at rocketmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> David,
> Thanks for Catherine's paper. I thought it was well done. I used to agree that Socrates seems to Be misrepresented by RMP but Dave
> Buchanan makes an interesting point
> In that what Pirsig is responding to
> Cultural assumptions regarding Plato.
> 
> 
> In regard to your rebuttal I have to
> Comment on what you said about
> Dialectic and truth in regard to Socrates. 
> "In the second half of the 5th century BC, sophists were teachers who specialized in using the tools ofphilosophy and rhetoric to entertain or impress or persuade an audience to accept the speaker's point of view. Socrates promoted an alternative method of teaching which came to be called the Socratic method."
> 
> 
> "The Socratic method is a method of hypothesis elimination, in that better hypotheses are found by steadily identifying and eliminating those that lead to contradictions. The Socratic method searches for general, commonly held truths that shape opinion, and scrutinizes them to determine their consistency with other beliefs"
> 
> 
> -wiki Socratic method
> 
> 
> To be sure, Socrates was concerned With the clarity and consistency of ideas. Therefore Socrates "truth"is a Love for clarity and consistency.
> 
> 
> It is also interesting to note that Protagoras ( a sophist ) is credited For originating the method.
> 
> 
> If we really want to understand the Difference between the sophists Arête and Socrates truth then we Are going to have to look at what is Meant by them.
> 
> 
> In the Homeric poems, Arete is frequently associated with bravery, but more often with effectiveness. The man or woman of Arete is a person of the highest effectiveness; they use all their faculties--strength, bravery and wit--to achieve real results.
> What Socrates argues is that excellence is an anything you like
> Kind of endeavor without clarity and
> Consistency.
> I believe this was the conclusion RMP
> Arrived at in his work. Part of the journey of Pirsigs novels includes the
> Attack and deconstruction of modern
> Academia and beliefs in our culture.
> If the project is to expand reason then
> It's not as simple as sophists are right
> And Socrates is wrong.
> It's important to note that "sophist" does not represent an ideology, but rather sophists were simply 1) distinguished public speakers and 2) taught at a tertiary level for money. That does not imply any common beliefs beyond a commitment to education.
> In conclusion I think RMP was not misguided in the assessment of the popular interpretation of Plato and
> Socrates. I argue that RMP used
> Socratic method in his novels. He
> Employed Elenchus and the reader
> Was supposed to arrive at aporia.
> It incited the reader (or was supposed
> To) to take a closer re-evaluative look
> At Socrates and Plato and Aristotle,
> To eliminate common cultural assumptions about their work.
> 
> 
> Thanks for the topic of discussion !
> -Ron 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Apr 2, 2015, at 9:27 AM, David Harding <david at goodmetaphysics.com> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Hi All,
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> I’ve recently written a response to Ancient Greek Philosophy Academic Catherine Rowett’s paper on ZMM. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Thanks go to Catherine for not ignoring ZMM and Ant for comments on final draft.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Links:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Catherine’s original paper:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> https://www.academia.edu/172951/Absolute_goodness_rhetoric_and_rationality_a_discussion_of_Robert_Pirsigs_novel_Zen_and_the_art_of_motorcycle_maintenance_and_Platos_Phaedrus
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> The response paper: 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> https://www.academia.edu/11703364/A_review_of_Absolute_goodness_rhetoric_and_rationality_a_discussion_of_Robert_Pirsig_s_novel_Zen_and_the_Art_of_Motorcycle_Maintenance_and_Plato_s_Phaedrus._
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Love to hear any feedback.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Best,
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> David.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Moq_Discuss mailing list
>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
>> Archives:
>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html
>> 
>> 
>> Moq_Discuss mailing list
> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> Archives:
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> http://moq.org/md/archives.html
> 
>