[MD] Rhetoric

[Tuukka Virtaperko]

I don't like gambling. That feels like work. If you gamble you have to 
do calculations or be knowledgeable about horses, or someone else is 
gonna take your money. I already gambled my youth on philosophy and 
isn't time money? When I came here to debate some age-old issue with you 
I didn't expect to make progress. It's just that Dan offered the damn 
thing on a silver plate. Of course I make logic out of it, how can 
someone not do that after they've received free private education? Do 
you know how free private education feels like? It makes you feel 
special. It makes you feel like "The rest of the people don't even know 
this but if there's something logical I'm gonna take a shot at it." And 
then there it is, Pirsig made a mistake. Boom! Yeah, I get my kicks out 
of that. Because that stuff has been around for years and I'm the first 
to notice.

So I have this paradoxical character of liking to take risks and being 
extremely patient. But it doesn't mean I wouldn't like the fast stuff. I 
like that, too. It's just that I also like the slow stuff.

Tuk




On 07-Dec-16 5:01, Tuukka Virtaperko wrote:
> Adrie,
>
> when I step out of dialectics I tend to immediately proceed to 
> theology, art, adventures, experimental culture or something like 
> that. I used to like continental philosophy more but it started 
> feeling like, if we're just wading in all this rhetoric we will not 
> build something that lasts but we will merely take a snapshot of the 
> atmosphere we're living in. I just wanted to make something really 
> solid I can trust not to go away for some reason that escapes my 
> comprehension.
>
> If it's made of logic and it's good, it can last millennia. But yeah, 
> not all things need to last *that* long.
>
> I've been studying socionics lately. It's just so much easier to 
> approach people in terms of logical structure. It makes me keep my 
> focus. Sometimes when I'm around people I feel bad because I don't 
> know what to expect. Socionics allows me to devise vague expectations 
> that are so vague they don't mean much, but just enough to make the 
> part of me that wants to control calm down so that some other 
> functions of my personality can become active.
>
> I used to be popular in high school. But I was so in my own world I 
> didn't even notice. Sometimes I'd like to feel younger again. But, no 
> offense, that's probably not how I'm going to feel here with you guys. 
> Family? Heart condition?
>
> You know, I sometimes do this kind of random stuff such as meet a 
> total stranger and go keep company to her while she's shoplifting. And 
> when we're near the exit she becomes convinced she's not going to get 
> caught - that nobody noticed - and she just closes her eyes and 
> smiles. She gets off on that. And I like to watch. Do people with a 
> family and a heart condition do that?
>
> If it's not analytical philosophy I want it to be exciting. And I 
> don't think continental philosophy is exciting.
>
> Tuk
>
>
>
>
> On 07-Dec-16 4:42, Tuukka Virtaperko wrote:
>> Adrie,
>>
>>
>> On 04-Dec-16 17:03, Adrie Kintziger wrote:
>>> @Tuuk.
>>>
>>> Your statement above is not entirely correct.And i do not think it 
>>> would be
>>> honest to say that you cannot post mail's here without someone else
>>> trys to copulate with it either.
>>> I took a big snip back from the beginning of the thread.
>>> "quote", Tuukka.
>>>
>>>
>>> If you're calling me unnatural, I agree. I trek and am familiar with
>>> nature, I feel it. But there are degrees of separation from nature.
>>> Consider the guy who designs the electronics inside your cell phone. 
>>> He's
>>> pretty far detached from nature. But then again, consider an African 
>>> with a
>>> cell phone. He possibly owns very few electronic devices. But many 
>>> Africans
>>> do have a cell phone. I think the African with the cell phone is less
>>> detached from nature than the guys (and girls) who designed the 
>>> electronics
>>> and coded the software inside.
>>>
>>> So, these nerds (Hell if Adrie doesn't accuse me of being a nerd. I 
>>> could
>>> call him a flibbertigibbet but that would go nowhere.) change 
>>> nature. They
>>> could some day create nature on different planet. I know, that doesn't
>>> interest anyone here, clearly. But they could still do it.
>>>
>>> The point is, technology can help us express our nature. And if 
>>> technology
>>> gets good enough we will have more time to cultivate the delightful 
>>> aspects
>>> of what does it mean to be a biological organism. Which is what you 
>>> want.
>>> But you don't want to be part of the process if that requires you to 
>>> change
>>> your thinking. You only want the result. And do you know why that 
>>> makes me
>>> feel bad?
>>>
>>> It makes me feel bad because I have to do this because of who I am. 
>>> I don't
>>> have enough social skills. If I try to do that "emotional intelligence"
>>> thing people do at my posts, which apparently means throwing poop at 
>>> them
>>> like monkeys or staring at them like ducks, I end up doing something 
>>> else
>>> than maximizing my potential.
>>>
>>> But the paradox in me maximizing my potential is in me doing things 
>>> that
>>> don't make me happy. That don't mean living a full life. So, I'm always
>>> balancing between "you're going to break yourself that way" and "now 
>>> you're
>>> just trying to drown the pain you feel all the time".
>>>
>>> The break myself part means that I don't eat, I don't have a social 
>>> life, I
>>> get so serious and competitive I start feeling intimidated by people 
>>> with
>>> good social skills... because I'm so serious I don't feel like I'm 
>>> going to
>>> enlighten people like some guy in a robe. I feel like I'm going to 
>>> KILL the
>>> ignorance in them like some guy driving a tank. So, obviously my 
>>> natural
>>> instinct becomes to suspect that the emotionally intelligent people 
>>> share
>>> this mindset even though they're just getting good vibes from helping
>>> people. I feel like they're punishing me for who I am because I can't
>>> behave up to their standards.
>>>
>>> But sometimes I get so sick of that. I'm really not inhumane enough.
>>> Because that serious and competitive attitude does make me sick. So 
>>> then I
>>> try to feel. Live a life of feelings. And it's difficult because 
>>> usually I
>>> really don't care. If I love someone, then I care. Otherwise I 
>>> really don't
>>> care. I'm not sure what "universal love" means or whether it's 
>>> attainable
>>> for me. Sometimes temporarily it may be.
>>>
>>> And you think I live this way because I think it's a good way to live a
>>> life. No, I don't think anybody should live like this unless they're 
>>> good
>>> at what they do. If you do this but you're never going to be good at 
>>> it,
>>> well, unless somebody pays you to do it anyway, or unless you do it 
>>> just
>>> for fun, stop doing it. That's my advice to anyone.
>>>
>>> You don't need to teach me I'm hurting myself by living this kind of a
>>> life. I know it already. I'm not imposing a lifestyle on you! I'm only
>>> imposing the results of my pain-in-the-ass research on you. I could do
>>> something else. A lot of people would want me to draw cartoons. But 
>>> nobody
>>> has ever told me a coherent acount of why I couldn't be extremely 
>>> good at
>>> this. I think I'm better at this than anyone I know. Yup, another proof
>>> that I have no social skills. A suave person might have thought that of
>>> himself but wouldn't have said it.
>>>
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>>>
>>>
>>> Comment.
>>> I did not call you a nerd, nor doi think you are a nerd.What you wrote
>>> above is very consistent,taken from real life itself,and seems very 
>>> honest
>>> and open.
>>> It is not a bad thing to analyse one self.Knowing yourself is 
>>> essential to
>>> find wisdom.
>>> I did re-read the entire mail here, and most of it really should not be
>>> criticised
>>> at all.The posting was not directed at me,but it is quit clear that 
>>> nobody
>>> here
>>> reacted on it.
>>> Nobody tought it was nessecary to copulate with it, or trow poop at it
>>> right?
>>>
>>> When i read it, to be honest,and to adress your points of view 
>>> expressed
>>> here,
>>> i see no need to ridicule you, or to call in the cheerleaders
>>> either,.......it ain't very sad, your story,nor does it appears to be
>>> filosophical.Most of the problems you talk about here are simply life's
>>> difficulties,nothing else.
>>> They are not attached to one individual solely.
>>> The social skills you keep reffering to?, some whitparts in these 
>>> posting
>>> snaps?, you think too much of it ,kiddo,life itself nor the social 
>>> skills
>>> you project here, or wich are projected as absent in the path you'r on
>>> right now, will make the lights burn, or produce a book.
>>> Life itself is not all that "Pompous", or as we say in Belgium and
>>> Holland,life
>>> itself is not all that " hoogdravend",as we wished it to be.Forget the
>>> playing
>>> part,you'r way passed puberty,forget mom and dad,as you cannot rely 
>>> on them
>>> when you grow up.Forget the the winig part," i do not eat", or" i 
>>> damage
>>> myself", .............leave it behind or it will consume you.
>>> You need to be a caracter on your own. Work for yourself.Complaining
>>> is useless.It does not work.
>>>
>>> But is all the above that you wrote decent?, yes off course it is,so 
>>> why
>>> would i call you a nerd?.But i can also see that you are under a lot of
>>> pressure to start talking about filosophy or Pirsig,or related
>>> material,because that's the
>>> purpose of this list right?,.....What is holding you back? i'm 
>>> not.Nobody is
>>> exept yourself.
>>
>> Tuk:
>>
>> Well, uhh, I'm really mostly just interested of the dialectical part 
>> of philosophy. If it's philosophy, dialectics, please. But if it's 
>> life... that's a different story. It's just that you're interacting 
>> with my work persona here. When Bo had to go to the hospital I was 
>> worried. And I expressed it. But after he came back we just kept 
>> debating.
>>
>> The Diamond Sutra pretty much captures the aspect of philosophy that 
>> isn't dialectical and that I like. And it captures the point of MOQ, 
>> the undefinability of (Dynamic) Quality. And I didn't even get it by 
>> reading the MOQ. I got it when someone else read the Diamond Sutra to 
>> me. But after I "got" it I regarded it as obvious and kept on doing 
>> dialectics because of a million good reasons.
>>
>> It's like people thought once you realize dialectics is just 
>> dialectics you're supposed to stop doing it. I don't think so.
>>
>> Tuk
>>
>>>
>>> I did doubt it for some time weather or not i would comment on the next
>>> snip, but i will.
>>>
>>> snip
>>>
>>> (Yeah, I've occasionally been one of the cool guys, too. Still am. 
>>> But I
>>> don't know much about what to do with that. It looks like I probably 
>>> should
>>> be one of the guys who makes things for people who actually need them
>>> because they have a life. If you were one of those laborers, would you
>>> never feel envious? Maybe, if you wouldn't know how good the living 
>>> feel.
>>> But they can feel really good. And once you know that, you realize 
>>> you're
>>> on a space mission because even though you can understand what these
>>> emotionally intelligent people have accomplished in life, you realize
>>> that's not what your life is gonna be. And you search and search for 
>>> a way
>>> to change that, but you can't find any. And if you just keep 
>>> searching too
>>> long you start feeling like: "Now I'm not going to even achieve that 
>>> nerdy
>>> shit I could've made work had I just given up about life soon enough!")
>>>
>>> comment.
>>>
>>> The above explanation is the story of the kings "fool" or "nar" or in
>>>   english
>>> "jester"!!.    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jester
>>>
>>> Nobody gets away with a life like that anymore.You will find some of 
>>> them
>>> still today in the big city's like Rome, or Amsterdam, trying to 
>>> enchant
>>> some tourists, or show them some magic with cardgames,or play the gitar
>>> before the vatican(playing 'titanic')(pun intended), i mean,Jester's 
>>> do not
>>> get a pension,
>>> they have no future or purpose..........
>>> I did not use this explanation to make a fool of you, Tuukka,but 
>>> either you
>>> will play along with life's demands, or it will leave you behind.
>>>
>>> Given all the above, and in the light of the controverse about Pirsig's
>>> wherabouts and adress,and you last posting consideret i can say
>>> that it is a certainty that tim rappl is a real Jester,a drugged and 
>>> doped
>>> one.
>>> do not follow his lead, Tuuka,be a personality of your own.
>>>
>>> Adrie
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 2016-12-04 12:25 GMT+01:00 <mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net>:
>>>
>>>> David,
>>>>
>>>> nice. Now you're pretending it was your idea that I leave him alone.
>>>> Nothing else to do than try to get inside someone else's skin? I 
>>>> can't even
>>>> post a message on MD without someone trying to copulate with it... 
>>>> that
>>>> must be why Pirsig doesn't do so either.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Tuk
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Quoting david <dmbuchanan at hotmail.com>:
>>>>
>>>> I don't know what Robert Pirsig has been doing lately but normally  he
>>>>> drinks coffee at his desk each morning while reading the news and  
>>>>> the
>>>>> posts on this forum, among other things. If that's still true,  
>>>>> then he
>>>>> knows your email address and he knows you'd like to be in contact. 
>>>>> But so
>>>>> would many, many, many other people. And nobody is capable of 
>>>>> satisfying
>>>>> that kind of demand. Nobody. And he's retired,  likes to meditate, 
>>>>> and
>>>>> otherwise keep to himself. Plus he's in his  80s. Please, don't 
>>>>> take it
>>>>> personally if I suggest that you let it  go and leave him alone. 
>>>>> And I take
>>>>> my own advice, by the way. I  could bother him but I don't. Out of 
>>>>> respect
>>>>> for his peace of mind  and expressed wishes. He's done talking 
>>>>> about the
>>>>> MOQ with fans.  That's all there is to it. True story. "I'm 
>>>>> retired," he
>>>>> said, "you  guys take it from here."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>> From: Moq_Discuss <moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org> on 
>>>>> behalf of
>>>>> mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net <mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net>
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 3, 2016 2:15 PM
>>>>> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>>>>> Subject: Re: [MD] Rhetoric
>>>>>
>>>>> I haven't noticed that Tim would've posted Pirsig's street address on
>>>>> LS. Even if he did, I'd feel uncomfortable writing Pirsig had I
>>>>> obtained his address in such a way.
>>>>>
>>>>> At this point Pirsig, if in sufficient health, is perfectly 
>>>>> capable of
>>>>> figuring out who I am and what's my business. Meeting him would be an
>>>>> honor and I wouldn't require a particular kind of a meeting. If he
>>>>> anyway does not wish to contact me, why should I think any more of 
>>>>> it?
>>>>> A man of his age needn't think of work, that's for sure. There's more
>>>>> to life, such as cooking sausages in the fireplace. That's what I'm
>>>>> going to do next, anyway.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Tuk
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>>
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