[MD] Rhetoric

Wed Dec 7 16:01:58 PST 2016

Adrie,

why don't you learn to read before you write me another message? I've  
read LILA and I didn't say I haven't read it.

And, just for the record, that woman I mentioned earlier was broke.  
But no more stories for you. Learn to read first.

Tuk

Lainaus Adrie Kintziger <parser666 at gmail.com>:

> Working on the moq since you were 16?, i don't think so, because about
> three weeks ago, you stated that you did not completely read 'lila',and it
> really shows that you did not read it.
> You have no idea towards the content of 'lila', 'lila's child ' or ZAm.
> I'm not your enemy , Tuuk, but i found most of mine and Dan, and David's
> postings here cut/copy'd and pasted away to the neighboring geeklist
> as if we were posting them there ourselves?;;;;;but we did not do such
> thing.
> You did not get caught in Pirsig's trap, Tuuk or in DMB's trap,but in the
> Norwegian trap.You can be the Jester there.
> Here it won't work
>
> 2016-12-07 22:29 GMT+01:00 Tuukka Virtaperko <mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net>:
>
>> I'm not eristic. Dialectics is my way of pursuing the truth. It always has
>> been. I have always been old in that sense. But it is also childlish to
>> always pursue the truth. Old people say that's the best thing to do but
>> they know when not to do it. Usually.
>>
>> When I was a child I had debates with adults. I kept doing it for a long
>> time. At first I was bewildered about how stupid these adults are. But it's
>> not much fun anymore.
>>
>> I certainly don't do this stuff for fun. I do it when I need to kick some
>> much-deserving ass. "Deserving", you say. "Why?" you ask. Well... because
>> they were wrong.
>>
>> If I've worked on the MOQ since I was sixteen do I or do I not care about
>> whether someone is wrong about the MOQ? Odds are I care.
>>
>> But, you know, I don't want to really kick somebody's ass. I'm not perfect
>> either. I'd like to forgive. But if they fight back, what is there to
>> forgive? Nothing if I know I'm not crazy. I could be crazy. But if I've
>> made something of logic and it says they're wrong then I'm not crazy. Then
>> it's not about me. Then it's about the truth.
>>
>> Tuk
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 07-Dec-16 22:58, Adrie Kintziger wrote:
>>
>>> does this cover the previous 4 mails for congruence of the content?
>>> comparable?
>>> Plato could be wrong,of course.
>>>
>>> 2016-12-07 21:56 GMT+01:00 Adrie Kintziger <parser666 at gmail.com>:
>>>
>>> Plato,- Republic
>>>>
>>>> snip out of context.
>>>>
>>>> He cannot.
>>>> And from being a keeper of the law he is converted into a breaker of it?
>>>>
>>>> Unquestionably.
>>>> Now all this is very natural in students of philosophy such as I have
>>>> described,
>>>> and also, as I was just now saying, most excusable.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, he said; and, I may add, pitiable.
>>>> Therefore, that your feelings may not be moved to pity about our
>>>> citizens who
>>>> are now thirty years of age, every care must be taken in introducing them
>>>> to dialectic.
>>>>
>>>> Certainly.
>>>> There is a danger lest they should taste the dear delight too early; for
>>>> youngsters, as you may have observed, when they first get the taste in
>>>> their mouths, argue for amusement, and are always contradicting and
>>>> refuting
>>>> others in imitation of those who refute them; like puppy-dogs, they
>>>> rejoice in pulling and tearing at all who come near them.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, he said, there is nothing which they like better.
>>>> And when they have made many conquests and received defeats at the hands
>>>> of many, they violently and speedily get into a way of not
>>>> believinganything
>>>> which they believed before, and hence, not only they, but philosophy and
>>>> all that relates to it is apt to have a bad name with the rest of the
>>>> world.
>>>>
>>>> Too true, he said.
>>>> But when a man begins to get older, he will no longer be guilty of such
>>>> insanity; he will imitate the dialectician who is seeking for truth, and
>>>> not the eristic, who is contradicting for the sake of amusement; and the
>>>> greater moderation of his character will increase instead of diminishing
>>>> the
>>>> honour of the pursuit.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2016-12-07 5:21 GMT+01:00 Tuukka Virtaperko <mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net>:
>>>>
>>>> I don't like gambling. That feels like work. If you gamble you have to do
>>>>> calculations or be knowledgeable about horses, or someone else is gonna
>>>>> take your money. I already gambled my youth on philosophy and isn't time
>>>>> money? When I came here to debate some age-old issue with you I didn't
>>>>> expect to make progress. It's just that Dan offered the damn thing on a
>>>>> silver plate. Of course I make logic out of it, how can someone not do
>>>>> that
>>>>> after they've received free private education? Do you know how free
>>>>> private
>>>>> education feels like? It makes you feel special. It makes you feel like
>>>>> "The rest of the people don't even know this but if there's something
>>>>> logical I'm gonna take a shot at it." And then there it is, Pirsig made
>>>>> a
>>>>> mistake. Boom! Yeah, I get my kicks out of that. Because that stuff has
>>>>> been around for years and I'm the first to notice.
>>>>>
>>>>> So I have this paradoxical character of liking to take risks and being
>>>>> extremely patient. But it doesn't mean I wouldn't like the fast stuff. I
>>>>> like that, too. It's just that I also like the slow stuff.
>>>>>
>>>>> Tuk
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 07-Dec-16 5:01, Tuukka Virtaperko wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Adrie,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> when I step out of dialectics I tend to immediately proceed to
>>>>>> theology,
>>>>>> art, adventures, experimental culture or something like that. I used to
>>>>>> like continental philosophy more but it started feeling like, if we're
>>>>>> just
>>>>>> wading in all this rhetoric we will not build something that lasts but
>>>>>> we
>>>>>> will merely take a snapshot of the atmosphere we're living in. I just
>>>>>> wanted to make something really solid I can trust not to go away for
>>>>>> some
>>>>>> reason that escapes my comprehension.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If it's made of logic and it's good, it can last millennia. But yeah,
>>>>>> not all things need to last *that* long.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've been studying socionics lately. It's just so much easier to
>>>>>> approach people in terms of logical structure. It makes me keep my
>>>>>> focus.
>>>>>> Sometimes when I'm around people I feel bad because I don't know what
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> expect. Socionics allows me to devise vague expectations that are so
>>>>>> vague
>>>>>> they don't mean much, but just enough to make the part of me that
>>>>>> wants to
>>>>>> control calm down so that some other functions of my personality can
>>>>>> become
>>>>>> active.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I used to be popular in high school. But I was so in my own world I
>>>>>> didn't even notice. Sometimes I'd like to feel younger again. But, no
>>>>>> offense, that's probably not how I'm going to feel here with you guys.
>>>>>> Family? Heart condition?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You know, I sometimes do this kind of random stuff such as meet a total
>>>>>> stranger and go keep company to her while she's shoplifting. And when
>>>>>> we're
>>>>>> near the exit she becomes convinced she's not going to get caught -
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> nobody noticed - and she just closes her eyes and smiles. She gets off
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> that. And I like to watch. Do people with a family and a heart
>>>>>> condition do
>>>>>> that?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If it's not analytical philosophy I want it to be exciting. And I don't
>>>>>> think continental philosophy is exciting.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tuk
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 07-Dec-16 4:42, Tuukka Virtaperko wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Adrie,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 04-Dec-16 17:03, Adrie Kintziger wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> @Tuuk.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Your statement above is not entirely correct.And i do not think it
>>>>>>>> would be
>>>>>>>> honest to say that you cannot post mail's here without someone else
>>>>>>>> trys to copulate with it either.
>>>>>>>> I took a big snip back from the beginning of the thread.
>>>>>>>> "quote", Tuukka.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If you're calling me unnatural, I agree. I trek and am familiar with
>>>>>>>> nature, I feel it. But there are degrees of separation from nature.
>>>>>>>> Consider the guy who designs the electronics inside your cell phone.
>>>>>>>> He's
>>>>>>>> pretty far detached from nature. But then again, consider an African
>>>>>>>> with a
>>>>>>>> cell phone. He possibly owns very few electronic devices. But many
>>>>>>>> Africans
>>>>>>>> do have a cell phone. I think the African with the cell phone is less
>>>>>>>> detached from nature than the guys (and girls) who designed the
>>>>>>>> electronics
>>>>>>>> and coded the software inside.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So, these nerds (Hell if Adrie doesn't accuse me of being a nerd. I
>>>>>>>> could
>>>>>>>> call him a flibbertigibbet but that would go nowhere.) change nature.
>>>>>>>> They
>>>>>>>> could some day create nature on different planet. I know, that
>>>>>>>> doesn't
>>>>>>>> interest anyone here, clearly. But they could still do it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The point is, technology can help us express our nature. And if
>>>>>>>> technology
>>>>>>>> gets good enough we will have more time to cultivate the delightful
>>>>>>>> aspects
>>>>>>>> of what does it mean to be a biological organism. Which is what you
>>>>>>>> want.
>>>>>>>> But you don't want to be part of the process if that requires you to
>>>>>>>> change
>>>>>>>> your thinking. You only want the result. And do you know why that
>>>>>>>> makes me
>>>>>>>> feel bad?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It makes me feel bad because I have to do this because of who I am. I
>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>> have enough social skills. If I try to do that "emotional
>>>>>>>> intelligence"
>>>>>>>> thing people do at my posts, which apparently means throwing poop at
>>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>>> like monkeys or staring at them like ducks, I end up doing something
>>>>>>>> else
>>>>>>>> than maximizing my potential.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But the paradox in me maximizing my potential is in me doing things
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> don't make me happy. That don't mean living a full life. So, I'm
>>>>>>>> always
>>>>>>>> balancing between "you're going to break yourself that way" and "now
>>>>>>>> you're
>>>>>>>> just trying to drown the pain you feel all the time".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The break myself part means that I don't eat, I don't have a social
>>>>>>>> life, I
>>>>>>>> get so serious and competitive I start feeling intimidated by people
>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>> good social skills... because I'm so serious I don't feel like I'm
>>>>>>>> going to
>>>>>>>> enlighten people like some guy in a robe. I feel like I'm going to
>>>>>>>> KILL the
>>>>>>>> ignorance in them like some guy driving a tank. So, obviously my
>>>>>>>> natural
>>>>>>>> instinct becomes to suspect that the emotionally intelligent people
>>>>>>>> share
>>>>>>>> this mindset even though they're just getting good vibes from helping
>>>>>>>> people. I feel like they're punishing me for who I am because I can't
>>>>>>>> behave up to their standards.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But sometimes I get so sick of that. I'm really not inhumane enough.
>>>>>>>> Because that serious and competitive attitude does make me sick. So
>>>>>>>> then I
>>>>>>>> try to feel. Live a life of feelings. And it's difficult because
>>>>>>>> usually I
>>>>>>>> really don't care. If I love someone, then I care. Otherwise I really
>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>> care. I'm not sure what "universal love" means or whether it's
>>>>>>>> attainable
>>>>>>>> for me. Sometimes temporarily it may be.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And you think I live this way because I think it's a good way to
>>>>>>>> live a
>>>>>>>> life. No, I don't think anybody should live like this unless they're
>>>>>>>> good
>>>>>>>> at what they do. If you do this but you're never going to be good at
>>>>>>>> it,
>>>>>>>> well, unless somebody pays you to do it anyway, or unless you do it
>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>> for fun, stop doing it. That's my advice to anyone.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You don't need to teach me I'm hurting myself by living this kind of
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> life. I know it already. I'm not imposing a lifestyle on you! I'm
>>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>>> imposing the results of my pain-in-the-ass research on you. I could
>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>> something else. A lot of people would want me to draw cartoons. But
>>>>>>>> nobody
>>>>>>>> has ever told me a coherent acount of why I couldn't be extremely
>>>>>>>> good
>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>> this. I think I'm better at this than anyone I know. Yup, another
>>>>>>>> proof
>>>>>>>> that I have no social skills. A suave person might have thought that
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> himself but wouldn't have said it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Comment.
>>>>>>>> I did not call you a nerd, nor doi think you are a nerd.What you
>>>>>>>> wrote
>>>>>>>> above is very consistent,taken from real life itself,and seems very
>>>>>>>> honest
>>>>>>>> and open.
>>>>>>>> It is not a bad thing to analyse one self.Knowing yourself is
>>>>>>>> essential to
>>>>>>>> find wisdom.
>>>>>>>> I did re-read the entire mail here, and most of it really should not
>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>> criticised
>>>>>>>> at all.The posting was not directed at me,but it is quit clear that
>>>>>>>> nobody
>>>>>>>> here
>>>>>>>> reacted on it.
>>>>>>>> Nobody tought it was nessecary to copulate with it, or trow poop at
>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>> right?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> When i read it, to be honest,and to adress your points of view
>>>>>>>> expressed
>>>>>>>> here,
>>>>>>>> i see no need to ridicule you, or to call in the cheerleaders
>>>>>>>> either,.......it ain't very sad, your story,nor does it appears to be
>>>>>>>> filosophical.Most of the problems you talk about here are simply
>>>>>>>> life's
>>>>>>>> difficulties,nothing else.
>>>>>>>> They are not attached to one individual solely.
>>>>>>>> The social skills you keep reffering to?, some whitparts in these
>>>>>>>> posting
>>>>>>>> snaps?, you think too much of it ,kiddo,life itself nor the social
>>>>>>>> skills
>>>>>>>> you project here, or wich are projected as absent in the path you'r
>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>> right now, will make the lights burn, or produce a book.
>>>>>>>> Life itself is not all that "Pompous", or as we say in Belgium and
>>>>>>>> Holland,life
>>>>>>>> itself is not all that " hoogdravend",as we wished it to be.Forget
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> playing
>>>>>>>> part,you'r way passed puberty,forget mom and dad,as you cannot rely
>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>>> when you grow up.Forget the the winig part," i do not eat", or" i
>>>>>>>> damage
>>>>>>>> myself", .............leave it behind or it will consume you.
>>>>>>>> You need to be a caracter on your own. Work for yourself.Complaining
>>>>>>>> is useless.It does not work.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But is all the above that you wrote decent?, yes off course it is,so
>>>>>>>> why
>>>>>>>> would i call you a nerd?.But i can also see that you are under a lot
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> pressure to start talking about filosophy or Pirsig,or related
>>>>>>>> material,because that's the
>>>>>>>> purpose of this list right?,.....What is holding you back? i'm
>>>>>>>> not.Nobody is
>>>>>>>> exept yourself.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Tuk:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, uhh, I'm really mostly just interested of the dialectical part
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> philosophy. If it's philosophy, dialectics, please. But if it's
>>>>>>> life...
>>>>>>> that's a different story. It's just that you're interacting with my
>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>> persona here. When Bo had to go to the hospital I was worried. And I
>>>>>>> expressed it. But after he came back we just kept debating.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The Diamond Sutra pretty much captures the aspect of philosophy that
>>>>>>> isn't dialectical and that I like. And it captures the point of MOQ,
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> undefinability of (Dynamic) Quality. And I didn't even get it by
>>>>>>> reading
>>>>>>> the MOQ. I got it when someone else read the Diamond Sutra to me. But
>>>>>>> after
>>>>>>> I "got" it I regarded it as obvious and kept on doing dialectics
>>>>>>> because of
>>>>>>> a million good reasons.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's like people thought once you realize dialectics is just
>>>>>>> dialectics
>>>>>>> you're supposed to stop doing it. I don't think so.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tuk
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I did doubt it for some time weather or not i would comment on the
>>>>>>>> next
>>>>>>>> snip, but i will.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> snip
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> (Yeah, I've occasionally been one of the cool guys, too. Still am.
>>>>>>>> But
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> don't know much about what to do with that. It looks like I probably
>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>> be one of the guys who makes things for people who actually need them
>>>>>>>> because they have a life. If you were one of those laborers, would
>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>> never feel envious? Maybe, if you wouldn't know how good the living
>>>>>>>> feel.
>>>>>>>> But they can feel really good. And once you know that, you realize
>>>>>>>> you're
>>>>>>>> on a space mission because even though you can understand what these
>>>>>>>> emotionally intelligent people have accomplished in life, you realize
>>>>>>>> that's not what your life is gonna be. And you search and search for
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> way
>>>>>>>> to change that, but you can't find any. And if you just keep
>>>>>>>> searching
>>>>>>>> too
>>>>>>>> long you start feeling like: "Now I'm not going to even achieve that
>>>>>>>> nerdy
>>>>>>>> shit I could've made work had I just given up about life soon
>>>>>>>> enough!")
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> comment.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The above explanation is the story of the kings "fool" or "nar" or in
>>>>>>>>    english
>>>>>>>> "jester"!!.    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jester
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Nobody gets away with a life like that anymore.You will find some of
>>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>>> still today in the big city's like Rome, or Amsterdam, trying to
>>>>>>>> enchant
>>>>>>>> some tourists, or show them some magic with cardgames,or play the
>>>>>>>> gitar
>>>>>>>> before the vatican(playing 'titanic')(pun intended), i mean,Jester's
>>>>>>>> do not
>>>>>>>> get a pension,
>>>>>>>> they have no future or purpose..........
>>>>>>>> I did not use this explanation to make a fool of you, Tuukka,but
>>>>>>>> either you
>>>>>>>> will play along with life's demands, or it will leave you behind.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Given all the above, and in the light of the controverse about
>>>>>>>> Pirsig's
>>>>>>>> wherabouts and adress,and you last posting consideret i can say
>>>>>>>> that it is a certainty that tim rappl is a real Jester,a drugged and
>>>>>>>> doped
>>>>>>>> one.
>>>>>>>> do not follow his lead, Tuuka,be a personality of your own.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Adrie
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2016-12-04 12:25 GMT+01:00 <mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net>:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> David,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> nice. Now you're pretending it was your idea that I leave him alone.
>>>>>>>>> Nothing else to do than try to get inside someone else's skin? I
>>>>>>>>> can't even
>>>>>>>>> post a message on MD without someone trying to copulate with it...
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> must be why Pirsig doesn't do so either.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>> Tuk
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Quoting david <dmbuchanan at hotmail.com>:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I don't know what Robert Pirsig has been doing lately but normally
>>>>>>>>> he
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> drinks coffee at his desk each morning while reading the news and
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> posts on this forum, among other things. If that's still true,
>>>>>>>>>> then
>>>>>>>>>> he
>>>>>>>>>> knows your email address and he knows you'd like to be in contact.
>>>>>>>>>> But so
>>>>>>>>>> would many, many, many other people. And nobody is capable of
>>>>>>>>>> satisfying
>>>>>>>>>> that kind of demand. Nobody. And he's retired,  likes to meditate,
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> otherwise keep to himself. Plus he's in his  80s. Please, don't
>>>>>>>>>> take
>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>> personally if I suggest that you let it  go and leave him alone.
>>>>>>>>>> And
>>>>>>>>>> I take
>>>>>>>>>> my own advice, by the way. I  could bother him but I don't. Out of
>>>>>>>>>> respect
>>>>>>>>>> for his peace of mind  and expressed wishes. He's done talking
>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> MOQ with fans.  That's all there is to it. True story. "I'm
>>>>>>>>>> retired," he
>>>>>>>>>> said, "you  guys take it from here."
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> From: Moq_Discuss <moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org> on
>>>>>>>>>> behalf
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net <mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 3, 2016 2:15 PM
>>>>>>>>>> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [MD] Rhetoric
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I haven't noticed that Tim would've posted Pirsig's street address
>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>> LS. Even if he did, I'd feel uncomfortable writing Pirsig had I
>>>>>>>>>> obtained his address in such a way.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> At this point Pirsig, if in sufficient health, is perfectly capable
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> figuring out who I am and what's my business. Meeting him would be
>>>>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>>>> honor and I wouldn't require a particular kind of a meeting. If he
>>>>>>>>>> anyway does not wish to contact me, why should I think any more of
>>>>>>>>>> it?
>>>>>>>>>> A man of his age needn't think of work, that's for sure. There's
>>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>> to life, such as cooking sausages in the fireplace. That's what I'm
>>>>>>>>>> going to do next, anyway.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>> Tuk
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