[MD] Rhetoric

Thu Dec 8 19:31:39 PST 2016

I have wasted that place because I was too busy working on the MOQ.  
And I told the person who lived there that I will never come back. But  
I didn't do that to impress you.

Tuk

Lainaus mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net:

> Adrie,
>
> Of course I want to think you’re trying to teach me something. That  
> all those typos and negligence are just a facade. To lure me to  
> think I’m smarter than I really am.
>
> I have recollections of a world in which there is time and depth.  
> You think I don’t but I do.
>
> I don’t know if there are people around here who’d like to push me  
> down so that they themselves can shine. But I push everyone else  
> down if they give me the slightest reason to do so and if I can. And  
> then we have a bunch of people who are pushing each other down. A  
> bunch of people who have to go elsewhere to breathe so that they’d  
> be able to come back here to push each other down more forcefully.  
> And even if I won that game I’m not saying it’s such an awesome game.
>
> I do have recollections of a place in which there is time and depth and
> this is a place that has made people like Pirsig write great works of
> literature.
>
> I do have recollections of a place in which ice cream is meaningful. In
> which eating ice cream on a bench at summer is the best thing you can
> do and the only thing that really meant something to you that whole
> week.
>
> I’m not there right now. And if that’s the only thing you have that  
> you can use against me, do so. I know what that place is and I know  
> I’m not there. Call that place the MOQ if you like.
>
> Tuk
>
>
>
> Lainaus mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net:
>
>> Adrie,
>>
>> why don't you learn to read before you write me another message? I've
>> read LILA and I didn't say I haven't read it.
>>
>> And, just for the record, that woman I mentioned earlier was broke. But
>> no more stories for you. Learn to read first.
>>
>> Tuk
>>
>>
>>
>> Lainaus Adrie Kintziger <parser666 at gmail.com>:
>>
>>> Working on the moq since you were 16?, i don't think so, because about
>>> three weeks ago, you stated that you did not completely read 'lila',and it
>>> really shows that you did not read it.
>>> You have no idea towards the content of 'lila', 'lila's child ' or ZAm.
>>> I'm not your enemy , Tuuk, but i found most of mine and Dan, and David's
>>> postings here cut/copy'd and pasted away to the neighboring geeklist
>>> as if we were posting them there ourselves?;;;;;but we did not do such
>>> thing.
>>> You did not get caught in Pirsig's trap, Tuuk or in DMB's trap,but in the
>>> Norwegian trap.You can be the Jester there.
>>> Here it won't work
>>>
>>> 2016-12-07 22:29 GMT+01:00 Tuukka Virtaperko <mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net>:
>>>
>>>> I'm not eristic. Dialectics is my way of pursuing the truth. It always has
>>>> been. I have always been old in that sense. But it is also childlish to
>>>> always pursue the truth. Old people say that's the best thing to do but
>>>> they know when not to do it. Usually.
>>>>
>>>> When I was a child I had debates with adults. I kept doing it for a long
>>>> time. At first I was bewildered about how stupid these adults   
>>>> are. But it's
>>>> not much fun anymore.
>>>>
>>>> I certainly don't do this stuff for fun. I do it when I need to kick some
>>>> much-deserving ass. "Deserving", you say. "Why?" you ask. Well... because
>>>> they were wrong.
>>>>
>>>> If I've worked on the MOQ since I was sixteen do I or do I not care about
>>>> whether someone is wrong about the MOQ? Odds are I care.
>>>>
>>>> But, you know, I don't want to really kick somebody's ass. I'm not perfect
>>>> either. I'd like to forgive. But if they fight back, what is there to
>>>> forgive? Nothing if I know I'm not crazy. I could be crazy. But if I've
>>>> made something of logic and it says they're wrong then I'm not crazy. Then
>>>> it's not about me. Then it's about the truth.
>>>>
>>>> Tuk
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 07-Dec-16 22:58, Adrie Kintziger wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> does this cover the previous 4 mails for congruence of the content?
>>>>> comparable?
>>>>> Plato could be wrong,of course.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2016-12-07 21:56 GMT+01:00 Adrie Kintziger <parser666 at gmail.com>:
>>>>>
>>>>> Plato,- Republic
>>>>>>
>>>>>> snip out of context.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> He cannot.
>>>>>> And from being a keeper of the law he is converted into a breaker of it?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Unquestionably.
>>>>>> Now all this is very natural in students of philosophy such as I have
>>>>>> described,
>>>>>> and also, as I was just now saying, most excusable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, he said; and, I may add, pitiable.
>>>>>> Therefore, that your feelings may not be moved to pity about our
>>>>>> citizens who
>>>>>> are now thirty years of age, every care must be taken in   
>>>>>> introducing them
>>>>>> to dialectic.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Certainly.
>>>>>> There is a danger lest they should taste the dear delight too early; for
>>>>>> youngsters, as you may have observed, when they first get the taste in
>>>>>> their mouths, argue for amusement, and are always contradicting and
>>>>>> refuting
>>>>>> others in imitation of those who refute them; like puppy-dogs, they
>>>>>> rejoice in pulling and tearing at all who come near them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, he said, there is nothing which they like better.
>>>>>> And when they have made many conquests and received defeats at the hands
>>>>>> of many, they violently and speedily get into a way of not
>>>>>> believinganything
>>>>>> which they believed before, and hence, not only they, but philosophy and
>>>>>> all that relates to it is apt to have a bad name with the rest of the
>>>>>> world.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Too true, he said.
>>>>>> But when a man begins to get older, he will no longer be guilty of such
>>>>>> insanity; he will imitate the dialectician who is seeking for truth, and
>>>>>> not the eristic, who is contradicting for the sake of amusement; and the
>>>>>> greater moderation of his character will increase instead of diminishing
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> honour of the pursuit.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2016-12-07 5:21 GMT+01:00 Tuukka Virtaperko <mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't like gambling. That feels like work. If you gamble you   
>>>>>> have to do
>>>>>>> calculations or be knowledgeable about horses, or someone else is gonna
>>>>>>> take your money. I already gambled my youth on philosophy and   
>>>>>>> isn't time
>>>>>>> money? When I came here to debate some age-old issue with you I didn't
>>>>>>> expect to make progress. It's just that Dan offered the damn thing on a
>>>>>>> silver plate. Of course I make logic out of it, how can someone not do
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> after they've received free private education? Do you know how free
>>>>>>> private
>>>>>>> education feels like? It makes you feel special. It makes you feel like
>>>>>>> "The rest of the people don't even know this but if there's something
>>>>>>> logical I'm gonna take a shot at it." And then there it is, Pirsig made
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> mistake. Boom! Yeah, I get my kicks out of that. Because that stuff has
>>>>>>> been around for years and I'm the first to notice.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So I have this paradoxical character of liking to take risks and being
>>>>>>> extremely patient. But it doesn't mean I wouldn't like the   
>>>>>>> fast stuff. I
>>>>>>> like that, too. It's just that I also like the slow stuff.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tuk
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 07-Dec-16 5:01, Tuukka Virtaperko wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Adrie,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> when I step out of dialectics I tend to immediately proceed to
>>>>>>>> theology,
>>>>>>>> art, adventures, experimental culture or something like that.  
>>>>>>>>  I used to
>>>>>>>> like continental philosophy more but it started feeling like, if we're
>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>> wading in all this rhetoric we will not build something that lasts but
>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>> will merely take a snapshot of the atmosphere we're living in. I just
>>>>>>>> wanted to make something really solid I can trust not to go away for
>>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>>> reason that escapes my comprehension.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If it's made of logic and it's good, it can last millennia. But yeah,
>>>>>>>> not all things need to last *that* long.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I've been studying socionics lately. It's just so much easier to
>>>>>>>> approach people in terms of logical structure. It makes me keep my
>>>>>>>> focus.
>>>>>>>> Sometimes when I'm around people I feel bad because I don't know what
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> expect. Socionics allows me to devise vague expectations that are so
>>>>>>>> vague
>>>>>>>> they don't mean much, but just enough to make the part of me that
>>>>>>>> wants to
>>>>>>>> control calm down so that some other functions of my personality can
>>>>>>>> become
>>>>>>>> active.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I used to be popular in high school. But I was so in my own world I
>>>>>>>> didn't even notice. Sometimes I'd like to feel younger again. But, no
>>>>>>>> offense, that's probably not how I'm going to feel here with you guys.
>>>>>>>> Family? Heart condition?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You know, I sometimes do this kind of random stuff such as   
>>>>>>>> meet a total
>>>>>>>> stranger and go keep company to her while she's shoplifting. And when
>>>>>>>> we're
>>>>>>>> near the exit she becomes convinced she's not going to get caught -
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> nobody noticed - and she just closes her eyes and smiles. She gets off
>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>> that. And I like to watch. Do people with a family and a heart
>>>>>>>> condition do
>>>>>>>> that?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If it's not analytical philosophy I want it to be exciting.   
>>>>>>>> And I don't
>>>>>>>> think continental philosophy is exciting.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Tuk
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 07-Dec-16 4:42, Tuukka Virtaperko wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Adrie,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 04-Dec-16 17:03, Adrie Kintziger wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> @Tuuk.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Your statement above is not entirely correct.And i do not think it
>>>>>>>>>> would be
>>>>>>>>>> honest to say that you cannot post mail's here without someone else
>>>>>>>>>> trys to copulate with it either.
>>>>>>>>>> I took a big snip back from the beginning of the thread.
>>>>>>>>>> "quote", Tuukka.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If you're calling me unnatural, I agree. I trek and am familiar with
>>>>>>>>>> nature, I feel it. But there are degrees of separation from nature.
>>>>>>>>>> Consider the guy who designs the electronics inside your cell phone.
>>>>>>>>>> He's
>>>>>>>>>> pretty far detached from nature. But then again, consider an African
>>>>>>>>>> with a
>>>>>>>>>> cell phone. He possibly owns very few electronic devices. But many
>>>>>>>>>> Africans
>>>>>>>>>> do have a cell phone. I think the African with the cell   
>>>>>>>>>> phone is less
>>>>>>>>>> detached from nature than the guys (and girls) who designed the
>>>>>>>>>> electronics
>>>>>>>>>> and coded the software inside.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So, these nerds (Hell if Adrie doesn't accuse me of being a nerd. I
>>>>>>>>>> could
>>>>>>>>>> call him a flibbertigibbet but that would go nowhere.)   
>>>>>>>>>> change nature.
>>>>>>>>>> They
>>>>>>>>>> could some day create nature on different planet. I know, that
>>>>>>>>>> doesn't
>>>>>>>>>> interest anyone here, clearly. But they could still do it.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The point is, technology can help us express our nature. And if
>>>>>>>>>> technology
>>>>>>>>>> gets good enough we will have more time to cultivate the delightful
>>>>>>>>>> aspects
>>>>>>>>>> of what does it mean to be a biological organism. Which is what you
>>>>>>>>>> want.
>>>>>>>>>> But you don't want to be part of the process if that requires you to
>>>>>>>>>> change
>>>>>>>>>> your thinking. You only want the result. And do you know why that
>>>>>>>>>> makes me
>>>>>>>>>> feel bad?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It makes me feel bad because I have to do this because of   
>>>>>>>>>> who I am. I
>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>> have enough social skills. If I try to do that "emotional
>>>>>>>>>> intelligence"
>>>>>>>>>> thing people do at my posts, which apparently means throwing poop at
>>>>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>>>>> like monkeys or staring at them like ducks, I end up doing something
>>>>>>>>>> else
>>>>>>>>>> than maximizing my potential.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But the paradox in me maximizing my potential is in me doing things
>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>> don't make me happy. That don't mean living a full life. So, I'm
>>>>>>>>>> always
>>>>>>>>>> balancing between "you're going to break yourself that way" and "now
>>>>>>>>>> you're
>>>>>>>>>> just trying to drown the pain you feel all the time".
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The break myself part means that I don't eat, I don't have a social
>>>>>>>>>> life, I
>>>>>>>>>> get so serious and competitive I start feeling intimidated by people
>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>> good social skills... because I'm so serious I don't feel like I'm
>>>>>>>>>> going to
>>>>>>>>>> enlighten people like some guy in a robe. I feel like I'm going to
>>>>>>>>>> KILL the
>>>>>>>>>> ignorance in them like some guy driving a tank. So, obviously my
>>>>>>>>>> natural
>>>>>>>>>> instinct becomes to suspect that the emotionally intelligent people
>>>>>>>>>> share
>>>>>>>>>> this mindset even though they're just getting good vibes   
>>>>>>>>>> from helping
>>>>>>>>>> people. I feel like they're punishing me for who I am   
>>>>>>>>>> because I can't
>>>>>>>>>> behave up to their standards.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But sometimes I get so sick of that. I'm really not inhumane enough.
>>>>>>>>>> Because that serious and competitive attitude does make me sick. So
>>>>>>>>>> then I
>>>>>>>>>> try to feel. Live a life of feelings. And it's difficult because
>>>>>>>>>> usually I
>>>>>>>>>> really don't care. If I love someone, then I care.   
>>>>>>>>>> Otherwise I really
>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>> care. I'm not sure what "universal love" means or whether it's
>>>>>>>>>> attainable
>>>>>>>>>> for me. Sometimes temporarily it may be.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And you think I live this way because I think it's a good way to
>>>>>>>>>> live a
>>>>>>>>>> life. No, I don't think anybody should live like this unless they're
>>>>>>>>>> good
>>>>>>>>>> at what they do. If you do this but you're never going to be good at
>>>>>>>>>> it,
>>>>>>>>>> well, unless somebody pays you to do it anyway, or unless you do it
>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>> for fun, stop doing it. That's my advice to anyone.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You don't need to teach me I'm hurting myself by living this kind of
>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>> life. I know it already. I'm not imposing a lifestyle on you! I'm
>>>>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>>>>> imposing the results of my pain-in-the-ass research on you. I could
>>>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>>> something else. A lot of people would want me to draw cartoons. But
>>>>>>>>>> nobody
>>>>>>>>>> has ever told me a coherent acount of why I couldn't be extremely
>>>>>>>>>> good
>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>> this. I think I'm better at this than anyone I know. Yup, another
>>>>>>>>>> proof
>>>>>>>>>> that I have no social skills. A suave person might have thought that
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> himself but wouldn't have said it.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Comment.
>>>>>>>>>> I did not call you a nerd, nor doi think you are a nerd.What you
>>>>>>>>>> wrote
>>>>>>>>>> above is very consistent,taken from real life itself,and seems very
>>>>>>>>>> honest
>>>>>>>>>> and open.
>>>>>>>>>> It is not a bad thing to analyse one self.Knowing yourself is
>>>>>>>>>> essential to
>>>>>>>>>> find wisdom.
>>>>>>>>>> I did re-read the entire mail here, and most of it really should not
>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>> criticised
>>>>>>>>>> at all.The posting was not directed at me,but it is quit clear that
>>>>>>>>>> nobody
>>>>>>>>>> here
>>>>>>>>>> reacted on it.
>>>>>>>>>> Nobody tought it was nessecary to copulate with it, or trow poop at
>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>> right?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> When i read it, to be honest,and to adress your points of view
>>>>>>>>>> expressed
>>>>>>>>>> here,
>>>>>>>>>> i see no need to ridicule you, or to call in the cheerleaders
>>>>>>>>>> either,.......it ain't very sad, your story,nor does it   
>>>>>>>>>> appears to be
>>>>>>>>>> filosophical.Most of the problems you talk about here are simply
>>>>>>>>>> life's
>>>>>>>>>> difficulties,nothing else.
>>>>>>>>>> They are not attached to one individual solely.
>>>>>>>>>> The social skills you keep reffering to?, some whitparts in these
>>>>>>>>>> posting
>>>>>>>>>> snaps?, you think too much of it ,kiddo,life itself nor the social
>>>>>>>>>> skills
>>>>>>>>>> you project here, or wich are projected as absent in the path you'r
>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>> right now, will make the lights burn, or produce a book.
>>>>>>>>>> Life itself is not all that "Pompous", or as we say in Belgium and
>>>>>>>>>> Holland,life
>>>>>>>>>> itself is not all that " hoogdravend",as we wished it to be.Forget
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> playing
>>>>>>>>>> part,you'r way passed puberty,forget mom and dad,as you cannot rely
>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>>>>> when you grow up.Forget the the winig part," i do not eat", or" i
>>>>>>>>>> damage
>>>>>>>>>> myself", .............leave it behind or it will consume you.
>>>>>>>>>> You need to be a caracter on your own. Work for yourself.Complaining
>>>>>>>>>> is useless.It does not work.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But is all the above that you wrote decent?, yes off course it is,so
>>>>>>>>>> why
>>>>>>>>>> would i call you a nerd?.But i can also see that you are under a lot
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> pressure to start talking about filosophy or Pirsig,or related
>>>>>>>>>> material,because that's the
>>>>>>>>>> purpose of this list right?,.....What is holding you back? i'm
>>>>>>>>>> not.Nobody is
>>>>>>>>>> exept yourself.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Tuk:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Well, uhh, I'm really mostly just interested of the dialectical part
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> philosophy. If it's philosophy, dialectics, please. But if it's
>>>>>>>>> life...
>>>>>>>>> that's a different story. It's just that you're interacting with my
>>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>>> persona here. When Bo had to go to the hospital I was worried. And I
>>>>>>>>> expressed it. But after he came back we just kept debating.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The Diamond Sutra pretty much captures the aspect of philosophy that
>>>>>>>>> isn't dialectical and that I like. And it captures the point of MOQ,
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> undefinability of (Dynamic) Quality. And I didn't even get it by
>>>>>>>>> reading
>>>>>>>>> the MOQ. I got it when someone else read the Diamond Sutra to me. But
>>>>>>>>> after
>>>>>>>>> I "got" it I regarded it as obvious and kept on doing dialectics
>>>>>>>>> because of
>>>>>>>>> a million good reasons.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It's like people thought once you realize dialectics is just
>>>>>>>>> dialectics
>>>>>>>>> you're supposed to stop doing it. I don't think so.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Tuk
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I did doubt it for some time weather or not i would comment on the
>>>>>>>>>> next
>>>>>>>>>> snip, but i will.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> snip
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> (Yeah, I've occasionally been one of the cool guys, too. Still am.
>>>>>>>>>> But
>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>> don't know much about what to do with that. It looks like I probably
>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>> be one of the guys who makes things for people who actually  
>>>>>>>>>>  need them
>>>>>>>>>> because they have a life. If you were one of those laborers, would
>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>> never feel envious? Maybe, if you wouldn't know how good the living
>>>>>>>>>> feel.
>>>>>>>>>> But they can feel really good. And once you know that, you realize
>>>>>>>>>> you're
>>>>>>>>>> on a space mission because even though you can understand what these
>>>>>>>>>> emotionally intelligent people have accomplished in life,   
>>>>>>>>>> you realize
>>>>>>>>>> that's not what your life is gonna be. And you search and search for
>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>> way
>>>>>>>>>> to change that, but you can't find any. And if you just keep
>>>>>>>>>> searching
>>>>>>>>>> too
>>>>>>>>>> long you start feeling like: "Now I'm not going to even achieve that
>>>>>>>>>> nerdy
>>>>>>>>>> shit I could've made work had I just given up about life soon
>>>>>>>>>> enough!")
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> comment.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The above explanation is the story of the kings "fool" or   
>>>>>>>>>> "nar" or in
>>>>>>>>>>  english
>>>>>>>>>> "jester"!!.    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jester
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Nobody gets away with a life like that anymore.You will find some of
>>>>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>>>>> still today in the big city's like Rome, or Amsterdam, trying to
>>>>>>>>>> enchant
>>>>>>>>>> some tourists, or show them some magic with cardgames,or play the
>>>>>>>>>> gitar
>>>>>>>>>> before the vatican(playing 'titanic')(pun intended), i mean,Jester's
>>>>>>>>>> do not
>>>>>>>>>> get a pension,
>>>>>>>>>> they have no future or purpose..........
>>>>>>>>>> I did not use this explanation to make a fool of you, Tuukka,but
>>>>>>>>>> either you
>>>>>>>>>> will play along with life's demands, or it will leave you behind.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Given all the above, and in the light of the controverse about
>>>>>>>>>> Pirsig's
>>>>>>>>>> wherabouts and adress,and you last posting consideret i can say
>>>>>>>>>> that it is a certainty that tim rappl is a real Jester,a drugged and
>>>>>>>>>> doped
>>>>>>>>>> one.
>>>>>>>>>> do not follow his lead, Tuuka,be a personality of your own.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Adrie
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 2016-12-04 12:25 GMT+01:00 <mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net>:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> David,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> nice. Now you're pretending it was your idea that I leave   
>>>>>>>>>>> him alone.
>>>>>>>>>>> Nothing else to do than try to get inside someone else's skin? I
>>>>>>>>>>> can't even
>>>>>>>>>>> post a message on MD without someone trying to copulate with it...
>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>> must be why Pirsig doesn't do so either.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>> Tuk
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Quoting david <dmbuchanan at hotmail.com>:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know what Robert Pirsig has been doing lately but normally
>>>>>>>>>>> he
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> drinks coffee at his desk each morning while reading the news and
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> posts on this forum, among other things. If that's still true,
>>>>>>>>>>>> then
>>>>>>>>>>>> he
>>>>>>>>>>>> knows your email address and he knows you'd like to be in contact.
>>>>>>>>>>>> But so
>>>>>>>>>>>> would many, many, many other people. And nobody is capable of
>>>>>>>>>>>> satisfying
>>>>>>>>>>>> that kind of demand. Nobody. And he's retired,  likes to meditate,
>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> otherwise keep to himself. Plus he's in his  80s. Please, don't
>>>>>>>>>>>> take
>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>> personally if I suggest that you let it  go and leave him alone.
>>>>>>>>>>>> And
>>>>>>>>>>>> I take
>>>>>>>>>>>> my own advice, by the way. I  could bother him but I don't. Out of
>>>>>>>>>>>> respect
>>>>>>>>>>>> for his peace of mind  and expressed wishes. He's done talking
>>>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> MOQ with fans.  That's all there is to it. True story. "I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>> retired," he
>>>>>>>>>>>> said, "you  guys take it from here."
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Moq_Discuss <moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org> on
>>>>>>>>>>>> behalf
>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>> mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net <mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 3, 2016 2:15 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [MD] Rhetoric
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I haven't noticed that Tim would've posted Pirsig's street address
>>>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>>> LS. Even if he did, I'd feel uncomfortable writing Pirsig had I
>>>>>>>>>>>> obtained his address in such a way.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> At this point Pirsig, if in sufficient health, is   
>>>>>>>>>>>> perfectly capable
>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>> figuring out who I am and what's my business. Meeting him would be
>>>>>>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>>>>>> honor and I wouldn't require a particular kind of a meeting. If he
>>>>>>>>>>>> anyway does not wish to contact me, why should I think any more of
>>>>>>>>>>>> it?
>>>>>>>>>>>> A man of his age needn't think of work, that's for sure. There's
>>>>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>>>> to life, such as cooking sausages in the fireplace.   
>>>>>>>>>>>> That's what I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>> going to do next, anyway.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Tuk
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