[MD] In religion

Mon Feb 15 12:50:44 PST 2016

Hello Irina.

snip from Irina's posting.

"The fact that I "should" "believe" in an entity "because" it is a
biological "existence" is stupid. A person exists whether I believe them to
exist or not. My assumption on their existence is totally arbitrary to them.
The power of existence is that it requires no probability. It exists
because it exists. That's it....."

(Adrie) some considerations....
In some important fields of philosophy this is not neccesarily true., as
'solipsism' is teaching that it makes no difference to believe another
person exists or not, it only accepts the self.As a model,it is an
important one.
Another example is the philosophycal "brain in a vat" if you schould like
to reconcider reality , or sharpen your skills.

 first line,...
snip
----On the topic. I must say that after I sent out my first reply to the
group I received an interesting one line reply as well:
"You should believe in Jesus because he is a person". I deleted this.
But for the sake of my annoyance I mention is as part of my reply. That
phrase is totally irrelevant and contradictory. Hopefully the person who
sent this will understand the following:

(Adrie)
if a person reacts like this , omitting posts to avoid the public domain of
the list,
you should delete it and give him a warning.Its desperate, childish and
grotesk.Especially when a person like you is new on the list.

Right , so you are from Zuid Afrika, that is nice,and living in Belgium for
some years now, was it strange for you that most of us understand
Suid-afrikaans
or was it helpfull?. btw , my son visited Suid-afrika 5 times already,most
of the time he went to Kaapstad(Capetown) or J'oburg(Johannesburg), but
also visited all the parks, kwazoeloe natal and Namibia.

nice to have yiu here.
Adrie

2016-02-15 8:58 GMT+01:00 Irina <irinaduplessis.ii.consult at gmail.com>:

>  Dankjewel Adrie. Genoteerd! Ik ben eigenlijk Zuid Afrikaans maar woont al
> in België paar jaren.
>
> On the topic. I must say that after I sent out my first reply to the group
> I received an interesting one line reply as well:
> "You should believe in Jesus because he is a person". I deleted this.
>
> But for the sake of my annoyance I mention is as part of my reply. That
> phrase is totally irrelevant and contradictory. Hopefully the person who
> sent this will understand the following:
> - Belief like faith is a word that is meant to describe a kind of
> assumption. Believing in a person is essentially assuming something about
> them or their actions. I believe my sister will succeed in her marriage. I
> cannot be sure because I cannot calculate such an outcome scientifically or
> mathematically so I have to base my conclusion on mere probability. Belief
> is probability, scientifically speaking. The fact that I "should" "believe"
> in an entity "because" it is a biological "existence" is stupid. A person
> exists whether I believe them to exist or not. My assumption on their
> existence is totally arbitrary to them.
> The power of existence is that it requires no probability. It exists
> because it exists. That's it.
> Perhaps this individual should rephrase their ridiculous phrase as such:
> "You should believe that Jesus made miracles during his embodiment as a
> person."
>
> I could accept that. For the simple fact that it does not create any
> paradox or mutually exclusive concepts.
>
> To answer Emily's question to expand. It was an awkward way to describe
> the constant fight between acting in one's own self interest versus the
> interests of society or community. Self deprivation may occur when we have
> to sacrifice what is in our own interest for the sake of a family member,
> friend, colleague...even government (the job of a soldier for instance).
>
> And on another reply which I cannot now get back because of phone
> issues...I don't think religion is a necessity to the human condition. We
> feel it is a necessity because in times of stress we fall back on the inner
> self to make sense of it. Religion is powerful because it satisfies the
> inner craving for answers to things that have no clear answer. We don't
> need religion in its organised sense to be human. We need spiritualism. The
> belief in something greater than the self that somehow has more control
> over life and everything about it than we can never have as an individual.
>
> But I can't expand on this at the moment.
>
> Irina DP
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Irina Du Plessis" <irinaduplessis.ii.consult at gmail.com>
> Sent: ‎11/‎02/‎2016 12:07
> To: "moq_discuss at lists.moqtalk.org" <moq_discuss at lists.moqtalk.org>
> Subject: Re: In religion
>
>
>
>
>
> On 10 February 2016 at 20:03, <moq_discuss-request at lists.moqtalk.org>
> wrote:
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>    1. Re: In religion (Adrie Kintziger)
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> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2016 18:05:30 +0100
> From: Adrie Kintziger <parser666 at gmail.com>
> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Subject: Re: [MD] In religion
> Message-ID:
>         <CAFS_YJ6Tk2zGvDYFxh=
> ctE53mx0Qt3wwPovXQ+MCQirTOt4tKQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> Hello, Irina.
> leuk , ben ik niet meer de enige belg hier.Je hebt een mooie posting
> gemaakt , Irina,je kunt heel goed intellectueel uit de voeten merk ik.Zelf
> post ik hier eigenlijk nog zelden, we maakten in de groep teveel ruzie
> soms.
> anyway,ff een tip , wil je erop letten niet de gehele body's van de threads
> te cut-copy pasten?;het is snel verwarrend en het word ook nog eens
> gearchiveerd? je mag natuurlijk wel grote snips nemen,maar denk om de
> bandbreedte.Ik probeer je ook maar te helpen hoor.
> groetjes , Adrie,Oost Vlaanderen.
>
> 2016-02-10 17:00 GMT+01:00 Emily Schober <emily_parodi at hotmail.com>:
>
> > Hi Irina,
> >
> > First off, welcome. Second, well said. I think the best approach of the
> > group, speaking from my own POV, is that the group have NO expectations
> > whatsoever from commenters. If we have no preformed expectations about
> > others' opinions, then it would be impossible for you to "fall short".
> > Regardless, even saying that you might "fall short" is saying that
> everyone
> > else's opinions are potentially more important and relevant than yours.
> And
> > who is to say that??? I've only been in the group for less than a year,
> but
> > I don't think that length of time amongst the MOQ discussion subgroup
> > necessarily equates to more qualified.
> >
> > Anyway, I'm a person who is strongly but also skeptically and
> > questioningly religious -- both from a more traditional (Catholic
> > upbringing) and Zen Buddhist (from more recent personal research)
> approach.
> > However, I don't discount the current scientific laws of evolution,
> because
> > as a person who believes in the scientific method I find it very
> difficult
> > to swallow that anyone can believe the universe is only a few thousand
> > years old and that humans started off as the modern homo sapien (and
> let's
> > not forgot about dinosaurs and prehistoric creatures in general).
> >
> > All of your thoughts resonate with me, make sense, and echo what I
> > believe, in part. You put my thoughts into well phrased words. However, I
> > don't think I quite follow what you mean by "the duel between self
> > sustenance and self deprivation". Can you expand upon that?
> >
> > Thank you.
> > Emily Schober
> >
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