[MD] still going?

[Dan Glover]

Hi John,

On Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 1:05 PM, John Carl <ridgecoyote at gmail.com> wrote:
> Heya Dan,
>
>>>   I'm with you, dave.  I don't think you can  compare terms in differing
>>> metaphysical contexts, quite so glibly.  Not without a lot of hemming and
>>> hawing and opening up your baggage for inspection.
>>
>> Dan:
>> But isn't that the fun? Examining that baggage someone's left open?
>> Picking through it to see if there might be something of use? And I
>> didn't take DiSanto's postulation as being offered glibly. I took the
>> effort as worth our while to pursue.
>>
>
>
> JC:  You bet!  Examining our baggage is what the philosophical
> endeavor is all about.  I've learned to my chagrin tho, that it's not
> a game that every one wants to (or can) play.  But I agree with you,
> let's pursue the idea.  Let's unpack its baggage.
>
>
>> JC:
>>> The subject-object
>>> distinction itself is a kind of trap that Taoism avoids, so I don't see
>>> how
>>> you could relate Taoist terms to SOM's.    I also think Pirsig's use of
>>> Quality as fundamental, is an improvement upon modern interpretations of
>>> Taoism that assert "interaction between" yin and yang.
>>
>> Dan:
>> Tao gives rise to the Two. The Two give rise to the Ten Thousand
>> things, or words to that effect.
>
>
> Jc:  Ok.  That seems  correct.  By "correct" I mean its a
> comprehensive and self-consistent metaphysics that we can live with.
>
>
>>It seems that the interaction between
>> the Two is simply a way of organizing reality not dissimilar to
>> subject and object. I took that as DiSanto's point. No?
>>
>
> JC:  I'll go along with you on what DiSanto's point is, I haven't
> considered him in detail.  But no, or... yes... I'll have to parse
> your assertion a bit more carefully... no.  Absolutely no.  Subject
> and Object is a way of organizing reality wherein the subject is the
> organizer and the objects are the reality.  That's nothing like yin
> and yang.  Yin and Yang are aspects of mind/consciousness.  What
> Objectivists would call "merely subjective".  So I don't see how you
> can make these clothes fit.  Maybe we need to dig a bit deeper into
> the luggage?

Dan:
What I'm getting at is not the method so much as the madness behind
it. Sure, the Tao is culturally a completely different beast than is
subject and object thinking but and this seems crucial to understand
they are both beasts.

For example, the drift I get from yin and yang is that they're
considered complementary forces giving rise to one another. That
appears suspiciously similar to subject giving rise to object and vice
versa. One cannot exist without the other.

When we talk about terms like subject and object, yin and yang, we are
doing just this: talking about the beast. Reality is dynamic and
flowing while the beast is static, stationary, dualistic. Are there
differences in the two outlooks? Of course. But they are both outlooks
based on duality.

>
>
>>>JC:
>>> Interaction between.   That's a piss-poor term for caring, wouldn't you
>>> say?
>>
>> Dan:
>> That depends upon the context. Seems a kid as in a snot-nosed eighteen
>> year old who worked as in formerly as a porter at the dealership where
>> I do building maintenance just got canned for stealing change out of a
>> customer's car. The kid. Said kid'd been there a while. Did quality
>> work so far as it goes.
>JC:
> Sounds to me like he deserved the little tip.  as long as he stuck to
> the small change.  I know that's not "moral", but it seems just to me.

Dan:
Deservings got nothin to do with it, he says in his best Clint
Eastwood accent. :-)

>
>> Leastways that's the word I got. Always helped
>> when I asked for a hand. Can't say the same for most of the porters
>> there. As in lazy assholes. The kid cared. But apparently his
>> interaction between the tempation to pocket a bit of spare change vs
>> his job seemed a bit convoluted. Did he care too much about the one
>> and not the other? And where does the caring about one end and the
>> other begin? Did he not realize quality and morality are synonymous?
>> Or in his mind was one different from the other?
>>
>
>JC:
> Bingo, Dan.  If you care about quality, you notice after a while that
> there isn't much reward for it, on its own.  for instance, you'd think
> a contractor like myself, would be rewarded for caring about the
> quality of my work, the foundation and the framing, coming together in
> perfect and cohesive lines and I'd be rewarded in the long run, even
> if I didn't make as much profit from the job as flashier guys.
> Well... that's not the way it works in actual life.  People are image
> oriented and they go by appearances.  We live in the age of marketing
> and the guy who puts caring about his work, over marketing his image,
> will not prosper at all, except by the perceptions of good people who
> look deeper than the image.  Those are rare these days.  So... I can
> cut the kid some slack.  If he was a good worker, he should have been
> taken aside and given a raise, along with an admonition to leave the
> small change alone.

Dan:
Do you have any choice in the matter? The way I see it, the reward is
in the work itself. Take my writing. I put a great deal of care into
my stories. Does anyone notice? Probably not. I look around me and I
see bestselling novels that are little more than drivel. Poorly
plotted, shallow one-dimensional characters, hard to follow story
line. And yet readers lap them up.

Now, does that mean I'm gonna follow suit and write trash? No. No more
than you're gonna stop putting your best into your work just because
no one seems to notice the care you put into it. We haven't a choice.
And why is that?

As for the kid... if you can't trust him to leave the nickels and
dimes alone, what happens when a greater temptation arises?

>
>
> Sorry I've been so sporadic, Dan.  I've definitely been in slump-mode.
>    I'm glad you're writing.  You're a good writer.  I wish I could
> afford to send you a tip. :)

Well, thank you, John! Hope you get over your slump soon! I enjoy your
writing too.

Dan

http://www.danglover.com