[MD] On Pirsig's letter to Paul Turner

[Adrie Kintziger]

It was not my intention to avoid the use of terms like free will, or will.
These terms are appropriate in filosophy.But it is important not to adopt
free will as merely choice, as free will is limited in its appearances.
It is not possible to break the day/night rythm by an act of free will,we
cannot
stop the sun from shining by act of free will, or make it stop
raining...etc.
Best example really,...simply take away the observer with his free will and
the conceptual reality we were speaking of,comes to a standstill ;it stalls.
So free will belongs to conceptual thinking.It happily avoids the spur of
the moment,the split second before conceptualisation,the aha ehrlebnis,and
there will be a conflictmodel with dynamic quality altogether.

Maybe Dan has better ways of thinking about it.

2016-07-15 17:04 GMT+02:00 Tuukka Virtaperko <mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net>:

> Adrie, Dan, all,
>
> If we don't want to speak of free will we could also say that the model is
> about how minds cause value accumulation within the ontology Pirsig
> presents in LILA. So, we replace "free will" with "mind". It doesn't really
> matter whether the mind has free will or not. So, are you fine with the
> notion that the mind is the cause of value accumulation? That minds make
> choices?
>
> Sounds good to me.
>
> Regards,
>
> Tuk
>
>
>
>
>
> On 15-Jul-16 17:27, Adrie Kintziger wrote:
>
>> But given your phrase ;first choice and more choises,would this not imply
>> by effect that the theme core here is really will and free will?
>> Or do i read it wrongly?
>>
>> I took Dans remarks in concideration here
>> snip (Dan)
>> Do you really believe biological patterns have volition? I can't see
>> it. Biological patterns are constrained into a specific set of
>> parameters which disable them, the biological patterns, from going
>> outside those parameters. So really the volition or choice that
>> biological patterns 'have' isn't that so much as being had by the
>> quality that both surrounds them, the biological patterns, and
>> permeates them, simultaneously making it seem as if free will exists,
>> which of course it does, but only seem to. So in essence this tends to
>> render your argument null and void if one follows said reasoning above
>> to its logical conclusion.
>>
>> Adrie
>>
>> 2016-07-15 15:43 GMT+02:00 Tuukka Virtaperko <mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net>:
>>
>> Dan, all,
>>>
>>> Whoops, I wrote:
>>>
>>> The reason why I said inorganic patterns have value only as extensions of
>>>
>>>> biological patterns is that this way the inorganic level has some value,
>>>> but it also has necessarily less value than the biological level.
>>>>
>>>> What I meant is that the inorganic level necessarily doesn't have more
>>> value than the biological level.
>>>
>>> Suppose we start the model so that there is zero quality within the
>>> model.
>>> Then a biological pattern makes the first choice using some inorganic
>>> pattern as an instrument. In this situation the inorganic level and the
>>> biological level have an equal amount of value for as long as it takes
>>> for
>>> the biological pattern to carry out the choice. After the choice has been
>>> made the amount of inorganic value is back to zero but biological value
>>> remains.
>>>
>>> So, in this special situation, the inorganic level and the biological
>>> level would have an equal amount of value. But as more choices are being
>>> made the inorganic level would definitely end up having less value than
>>> the
>>> biological level. I don't think this is a problem, but I was,
>>> technically,
>>> wrong when I said that the inorganic level would necessarily have less
>>> value than the biological level, because that doesn't apply in the
>>> special
>>> situation I mentioned although it seems to apply otherwise.
>>>
>>> Approaching my quota of four messages per day...
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Tuk
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>>
>>
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