[MD] On Pirsig's letter to Paul Turner

[Jan-Anders Andersson]

Dan, Tukka and others

Any pattern has time, according to the 2nd law of Thermodynamics. 
Patterns at the inorganic level last for very long time. These patterns are quite stable. Anyway, the more complicated patterns, like Uranium, the more unstable in time it is. So much for elements. Molecules are also patterns. Water molecules are very stable and last for billions of years while amino acids degenerate earlier. Time is crucial.

What happened in the beginning of the biological level was that DNA molecules could OVERCOME time-forced degeneration with a new form of quality which is reproduction. By reproducing old examples with new fresh copies the pattern is able to continue to be, in time, despite and against physical and chemical quality.

This is the main step and what makes the organic quality level superior to the inorganic.

Organic patterns acts like repeated patterns, hold the circle or leave it and find another, better gear. They evolve and mutate into new phantastic patterns. 

As long as they don't act socially, i e benefit from cooperation, they're purelly inorganic patterns.

Never forget time, freinds. An identificable pattern is always a repetition of something. Like an imaginary circle. That is why my book "Money and the Art of Losing Control" is based on a circular journey, so that you can read it again and again. 

All the best

Jan-Anders

> 16 juli 2016 kl. 14:14 skrev mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net:
> 
> Adrie, all,
> According to Pirsig knowledge is derived from experience. I suppose my model also works if we replace "free will" with "something that can have experiences and make choices" or "something that is experience and chooses". I'm not sure if that can be shortened as "mind" since there's also the concept of soul.
> 
> Regards,
> Tuk
> 
> 
> Lainaus Adrie Kintziger <parser666 at gmail.com>:
> 
>> It was not my intention to avoid the use of terms like free will, or will.
>> These terms are appropriate in filosophy.But it is important not to adopt
>> free will as merely choice, as free will is limited in its appearances.
>> It is not possible to break the day/night rythm by an act of free will,we
>> cannot
>> stop the sun from shining by act of free will, or make it stop
>> raining...etc.
>> Best example really,...simply take away the observer with his free will and
>> the conceptual reality we were speaking of,comes to a standstill ;it stalls.
>> So free will belongs to conceptual thinking.It happily avoids the spur of
>> the moment,the split second before conceptualisation,the aha ehrlebnis,and
>> there will be a conflictmodel with dynamic quality altogether.
>> 
>> Maybe Dan has better ways of thinking about it.
>> 
>> 2016-07-15 17:04 GMT+02:00 Tuukka Virtaperko <mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net>:
>> 
>>> Adrie, Dan, all,
>>> 
>>> If we don't want to speak of free will we could also say that the model is
>>> about how minds cause value accumulation within the ontology Pirsig
>>> presents in LILA. So, we replace "free will" with "mind". It doesn't really
>>> matter whether the mind has free will or not. So, are you fine with the
>>> notion that the mind is the cause of value accumulation? That minds make
>>> choices?
>>> 
>>> Sounds good to me.
>>> 
>>> Regards,
>>> 
>>> Tuk
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On 15-Jul-16 17:27, Adrie Kintziger wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> But given your phrase ;first choice and more choises,would this not imply
>>>> by effect that the theme core here is really will and free will?
>>>> Or do i read it wrongly?
>>>> 
>>>> I took Dans remarks in concideration here
>>>> snip (Dan)
>>>> Do you really believe biological patterns have volition? I can't see
>>>> it. Biological patterns are constrained into a specific set of
>>>> parameters which disable them, the biological patterns, from going
>>>> outside those parameters. So really the volition or choice that
>>>> biological patterns 'have' isn't that so much as being had by the
>>>> quality that both surrounds them, the biological patterns, and
>>>> permeates them, simultaneously making it seem as if free will exists,
>>>> which of course it does, but only seem to. So in essence this tends to
>>>> render your argument null and void if one follows said reasoning above
>>>> to its logical conclusion.
>>>> 
>>>> Adrie
>>>> 
>>>> 2016-07-15 15:43 GMT+02:00 Tuukka Virtaperko <mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net>:
>>>> 
>>>> Dan, all,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Whoops, I wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> The reason why I said inorganic patterns have value only as extensions of
>>>>> 
>>>>>> biological patterns is that this way the inorganic level has some value,
>>>>>> but it also has necessarily less value than the biological level.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> What I meant is that the inorganic level necessarily doesn't have more
>>>>> value than the biological level.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Suppose we start the model so that there is zero quality within the
>>>>> model.
>>>>> Then a biological pattern makes the first choice using some inorganic
>>>>> pattern as an instrument. In this situation the inorganic level and the
>>>>> biological level have an equal amount of value for as long as it takes
>>>>> for
>>>>> the biological pattern to carry out the choice. After the choice has been
>>>>> made the amount of inorganic value is back to zero but biological value
>>>>> remains.
>>>>> 
>>>>> So, in this special situation, the inorganic level and the biological
>>>>> level would have an equal amount of value. But as more choices are being
>>>>> made the inorganic level would definitely end up having less value than
>>>>> the
>>>>> biological level. I don't think this is a problem, but I was,
>>>>> technically,
>>>>> wrong when I said that the inorganic level would necessarily have less
>>>>> value than the biological level, because that doesn't apply in the
>>>>> special
>>>>> situation I mentioned although it seems to apply otherwise.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Approaching my quota of four messages per day...
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Tuk
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>> 
>> 
>> --
>> parser
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