[MD] Tuukka's Guitar : More Questions

[ngriffis]

Dan:

>If we check out Chapter 12 in Lila, we find:

 

>"In this plain of understanding static patterns of value are divided into
four systems: inorganic patterns, biological patterns, social patterns and
intellectual patterns. They are exhaustive. That's all there are. If you
construct an encyclopedia of four topics-Inorganic, Biological, Social and
Intellectual-nothing is left out. No "thing,"

that is. Only Dynamic Quality, which cannot be described in any
encyclopedia, is absent.

 

Nick: What about the value pattern of the "Spiritual"? Intellectual covers
what the human brain can rationalize and think about. The Spiritual has to
be intuited and felt. This is where I think Persig's genius shines. He has
created his metaphysics to deal with our Western and present day horns of
the dilemma: Science vs. Religion...Intellect vs. Spirit. Quality, something
that exists before the "four topics", before human thought...what is that
but the Tao, the indefinable, the Spiritual? I think Pirsig might say, "No,
the Spiritual pattern of value falls under the Intellectual Pattern of
Value." Maybe, but he is asking us to intuit that there exists something
called Quality. He is asking for our faith. That, to me, falls to the
Pattern of Spiritual Value. 

 

Questions: 

        In the above quote, Persig qualifies his four patterns of value with
"static". Why not "dynamic" also? Also, does "dynamic" value only appear on
an individual level and then, when carried on to other individual, becomes
"static"? 

 

        Dan, you seem to hold this discussion group together and on track.
You bring out the text and quote from it and then make your point. I
appreciate that and need to do that same to really contribute to this group.
I live in Florida and books do not do very well in this humidity, so I only
borrow my books from my Public Library. I might have to go "dynamic" here
and change that value and keep volumes of "ZMM" and "Lila" here in the
office. Thank you for your time, effort, and insights to the group.

 

John McConnell:

 

> One thing I see going on here is the inevitable intellectual craving to
analyze and classify.  We want to be able to assign a "level" or a type of
"pattern" to things.  Once Pirsig gave us the MOQ, we naturally want to
learn how to see everything in terms of its constructs.  I'm not sure that's
useful.

> Then it doesn't matter what level they are or what kind of value pattern
they are.  All that matters is that we know and recognize Quality when we
experience it.  Knowing what kind of pattern something is doesn't make our
lives better; being a medium of Dynamic Quality does. 

 

  Nick:      I think what Tuukka is trying to do is add to Pirsig's
metaphysics. It is not an easy challenge. You and I do not see the use in
defining the Intellectual level from the Social level from the Biological
level of value patterns. We seem to be working to keep our focus on DQ. By
Pirsig's definition of DQ, we will know it when we experience it, no matter
on what level. Perhaps, we are only coming to DQ from a different direction
than Tuukka. What might be most important is just that we all, as
individuals and as a group, move closer to Quality in whichever way we can.

 

 

John McConnell:

 

>      He began to discern, as others have, successive levels of
organization in the "stable patterns of value" emerging in the course of
cosmic evolution.  Each such emergent pattern of value carried within itself
the precedent levels, but brought forth a new and more robust "medium of
expression" of Dynamic Quality.  Each new level became a new medium of
creative evolution.  Another way to say this is that each new type of value
pattern became a clearer expression of the "direction" of Dynamic Quality
and offered less resistance to its impelling "energy".

 

Nick:            

        "Evolution", I think is a key word to incorporate into the
philosophy of MOQ. It is one science that provides a support for Persig's
Quality. Evolution seems directly connected to DQ in that the survival of
the species of man is hardwired in its genetics and its' surviving values.
It moves towards Quality for its' survival. Each time an individual chooses
Quality, rather than not, we evolve as individuals and as a species.
Sometimes, we move away from Quality: Hitler and his values. Fortunately, in
the great timeline of this earth and on balance, humankind moves forward,
reaching out ever more for DQ and evolution.

 

John McConnell:

 

> A guitar, a computer program, a motorcycle, a violin I once owned-each is
a "stable pattern of value", but more than that, it was crafted by someone
who, to a greater or lesser degree, crafted it with "peace of mind" and did
not "separate himself from the work so as to do it wrong."  It was
experienced by someone who, to a greater or lesser degree, related to it in
a way that expressed Dynamic Quality .

  

Nick:           

        Your words are your own and very well chosen. I would say that you
too are the poet and lyricist. Your ideas match Persig's model and speaks to
the Quality and values that that guitar might or might not reflect. 

 

        A "stable pattern of value": Yes, I think that you have described
the guitar's pattern of value well.  Anything man-made has value to
different degrees. Value can be reflected in all its' different man-made
categories and subcategories. The sub-categories might be Aesthetic and
Utilitarian.  Is the guitar beautiful, can is make pure tones, does it fit
the grip of the owner?

 

Question:

        Can you think of any other sub-category value groups that man-made
pieces of art and craft could fall into? 

        

        I see how quickly one can get out of one's depth here when one asks
questions of a metaphysics. One is opening a can of worms. Certainly, one
must think at a deeper level when questions are asked...a good thing.

 

John McConnell quotes Pirsig:

 

> "Something about this doll was giving it all kinds of Quality the
manufacturer had never built into it.  Lila had overlaid a whole set of
value patterns on top of it and those values were still clinging to it."  

 

Nick:     

        To my recollection, the value patterns that Lila "overlaid" on top
of the doll were not ones that brought her and the doll closer to Quality.
In fact, her projected patterns of value took her further into her insanity
and further away from that which we are seeking through MOQ.

 

John McConnell:

 

> the "things" our intellect calls "inanimate objects" become imbued with
Dynamic "potential" that affects us when we encounter them.  We are capable
of feeling Dynamic Quality in and through them.  

 

Nick:      

       I like your idea and it rings true to the Pirsig's model as I imagine
it. I would say that a guiding thought has value, if it helps people move
closer to Quality. I suppose care is needed though.  The Taoists would say
that the more you try to put Quality in a box, the further away you will
move from it. I think that is why what Persig has done is considered such a
great feat. He has given us an idea of Quality without killing it.

 

Question:

        Dan...group: What would you say to John's idea above?

        

        I would add that in-order for Quality to be reflected by an
inanimate object (the guitar), it might take the interaction of the guitar
and a human being. I am not sure about this. 

 

Questions:

        Do you think that I am correct in this idea? Do you think a guitar
has quality or it doesn't, no matter if there is interaction with a human
being or not? 

 

        I imagine Persig's model as this: Quality is that  which you
describe: " In the beginning there was Quality, and it was ineffable,
indefinable, un-analyzable." 

        I think he says that we move toward Quality or away from it as a
result of the interaction between ourselves and our environment. Further, we
can know when we have been successful or not, barring the human pitfall of
self delusion. This is why I like your idea of inanimate objects becoming
imbued with dynamic potential when we come into their circle. "We are
capable of feeling Dynamic Quality in and through them" depending upon how
we interact with those objects and if we do so with an attitude of caring.
Of course, this is true concerning our interactions with living beings, just
more difficult.