[MF] Dharmakaya light

Steve Mack smackc4 at optusnet.com.au
Mon Mar 6 18:18:23 PST 2006 

Cheers Lorenz; yes, I'm in Brisbane.

Glad that you did read back a little and see the mess I was referring to...Hopefully things are on the mend now as this email forum CAN be quite interesting!  No, your message didn't seem at all out of context to me.

PS; I like the "troll" label you gave me - I must check that my webcam is turned OFF in future! ;)

Steve
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Lorenz Gude 
  To: moq_focus at moqtalk.org 
  Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 3:10 AM
  Subject: Re: [MF] Dharmakaya light


  Hi Steve,

  Thanks for the clarification. I hadn't read through the recent wars 
  which I have now done and then I reread your post and what I posted by 
  Dr. Lin. What I took for a kind of out of character troll type question 
  by you I now see is a good joke. Maybe I'm wrong about this too but on 
  rereading that first sentence of his I quoted must seem pretty silly out 
  of context. My answer must therefore be: Of course the Dharmakaya Light 
  would consume the overcast of unknowing leaving only the blue sky. :-)

  To try to get this back to the MOQ more directly I read Dr. Lin more 
  carefully and although there are some real opportunities for fun in what 
  he writes he does give a description further down the page of four 
  characteristics of the Dharmakaya Light experience in meditation. 
  Evidently the blue sky experience alluded by him in my original quote is 
  a kind of fifth stage which, I think, is beyond the scope of the MOQ. It 
  is the first one that I think connects most directly to Persig.

  Dr Lin again:

  My late teacher revealed that there are four characteristics of this 
  experience that are common to all practitioners who are entering it, and 
  that these four characteristics occur simultaneously:

  1. The first characteristic is called "Bright Image," i.e., all things 
  appear to be brighter than usual, as if they were seen through a 
  crystal. This particular characteristic occurring alone is not too 
  difficult to attain. Usually when people go into meditative states they 
  have this experience.

  2. The second characteristic is called "No Thoughts," i.e., while fully 
  awake one’s thinking process has stopped; there is not a thought in 
  one’s awareness. Consequently, one is not even aware of this "No 
  Thoughts" occurring. It is only later when one reflects upon one’s 
  meditative experience that one realizes what happened.

  3. The third characteristic is called "No Duality," i.e., one is free 
  from the dualistic sense of subject versus object antagonism.

  4. The fourth characteristic is called "Ceased Breathing," i.e., one’s 
  breathing becomes ever finer and slowly comes to a halt. There is no air 
  in or out through the nostrils. However, at this moment one’s abdomen 
  begins to expand and contract in rhythm, and this is called "inner 
  breathing" because the air is still moving inside the body. Our normal 
  breathing, in contrast, is called "outer breathing." The characteristic 
  of "Ceased Breathing" means that one’s outer breathing has stopped.

  What Persig describes sounds to me like a spontaneous breaking through 
  of the first characteristic into normal everyday consciousness. Dr Lin, 
  I must note, says that there 4 characteristics occur simultaneously in 
  mediation and then immediately contradicts himself by saying of the 
  first one that "This particular characteristic occurring alone is not 
  too difficult to attain." This last seems to help explain the 
  spontaneous occurrences of a special light people experience. (I think 
  it might be worth looking for these characteristics in Persig's other 
  descriptions of experiencing Quality like the first hearing of a good 
  pop song, or the man having a hear attack.)

  Of course these are inner experiences and while I wouldn't dismiss them 
  as subjective and useless as the SOM does, there really is a serious 
  difficulty knowing when other's inner experiences actually are the same 
  as one's own. I can't remember if Persig deals with this issue in his 
  critique of SOM. Any help here?

  Lorenz Gude

  PS to Steve - I believe you said you were in Australia, I'm in Perth.




  Steve Mack wrote:
  > hahaha...Sorry; In light (no pun) of recent rather overwhelming at times, events on MoQ it was a little light-hearted response from me, though in abstract it does sound a little like a black hole - the comparison to nothingness and being left with blue sky.  I suppose rather pedantically; since this next question would probably fit better into MoQ;
  > If it were a rainy, overcast day - would Lin STILL state that it was BLUE, rather than grey sky that remained after all else had been consumed by the Dharmakaya Light?
  > ...
  >   ----- Original Message ----- 
  >   From: Lorenz Gude 
  >   To: moq_focus at moqtalk.org 
  >   Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 11:13 PM
  >   Subject: Re: [MF] Dharmakaya light
  >
  >
  >   Steve,
  >
  >   It doesn't sound that way to me, but I have no interest in defending Dr. 
  >   Lin's ideas. I included them because they were a very different 
  >   perspective from the Dalai Lama's - just to suggest the range of the 
  >   possible starting points to Maggie. I certainly did not include them 
  >   then as an assertion I was identifying with so if you want to dispute 
  >   his ideas about the Dharmakaya Light its fine with me.
  >
  >   Steve Mack wrote:
  >   > So...According to Dr. Yutang Lin, 'the Dharmakaya Light' in another metaphore, is more or less 'a black hole'?
  >   >
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