[MD] Where does ligic itself belong inside the MOQ?

[Andre Broersen]

Bodvar to Andre:
If your "development" means the social-intellectual one, you are
mistaken.

Andre:
No, I meant this in a social developmental' sense i.e. the 'change
from 'tangeable' items (such as apples and pears) to the
'symbolisation' of it as a 'unit' with 'meaning'.

Bodvar:
But at the social level the "symbol/what is symbolized"
distinction had not become reality's absolute fundament.

Andre:
No, I agree. What I was suggesting is that these were, perhaps, early
indications of a development towards such a foundation.

Bodvar:
No, no, money is far older than the intellectual level (the Greek
philosophers) at least in Europe.

Andre:
No,no, again I am referring to the social level developments.

Bodvar:
> Also, logic appears to be a method of establishing 'formal', 'true'
> relationships. Following the 'logical' path leads to 'truth'
> statements.

Yes, that's something different and more close to the "theorems" I'm
harping on. Ancient people knew the Pythagoras "effect" long before
Pythagoras, but he set out to prove that the sum of the squares ... etc.
is valid always. That's the said intellectual attitude. But don't be fooled
that "logic itself" only serves intellect, it was - still is - equally
logical to
a devout Muslim that Allah has given Mohammed the rules to live by.
It's the premises that count.

Andre:
I agree and suggest further that it appears to me that the
intellectual level, because dominated by the S/O distinction, is using
'logic itself' as a means to dominate the social level. It does so by
declaring emotions (biological/social responses) as subjective and
therefore illogical. At least this is one of the ways I am beginning
to understand you SOL thesis.

A few examples maybe: a hospital may run efficiently (logically) but
as a human being one gets the feeling of being reduced to a patient
i.e. a medical case. The 'user- friendly' interactions a syrupped
covering over the clinical hardness of a logically organised health
system.

As a worker one is reduced to an economic unit. Expected to become
part of a private/public economic system dominated by efficiency and
effectiveness (results) and where the highst achievable morality is
money (or money saving). One's social patterns (including responses)
are supposed to be 'suspended' for the daily 8 or 10 hours work one is
expected to put in.

Perhaps I am a bit too negative but seen from intellect this may not be untrue.

I notice in your post to Mary that the question runs as to which side
intellect will take...biology...society? As you muse:'...will the MoQ
join society to quell intellect?'
I hope the MoQ will take hold and keep on responding to Quality. When
it does that it will also see that it needs to look after its parents,
grand-parents and great-grand parents ( the social,organic and
inorganic levels).
The notion that intellect has developed a momentum of its own must be
halted/ checked otherwise the rust-belt Pirsig describes in LILA will
only get worse.Imho. ( I am partially responding here to your comment
that 'Communism was a rational (intellectual) system...having wrecked
havoc etc . Capitalism is an irrational economic social system which
has brought great prosperity but at the same time also wrecking
havoc...).

Something else yet Bodvar. In an earlier Popeye post (Dec.30) you say:
'However - before the MoQ, while intellect were SOM- the S/O
distinction was regarded to be a bottomless, unbridgeable chasm, and
because we know that the subject and object (mind and body) interact
freely it vreated platypuses galore. This is how the MoQ resolves the
mind/matter paradox, not Pirsig's tedious method in LILA.

Andre:
Can you elaborate please? I don't quite follow...which 'tedious method'?

Re my abode here in China, English spellings differ. Try perhaps
Shangzhou...follow road nr.312 east south east out of Xi'an. Along the
same road, farther east there is Danfeng etc. etc.

Re; 'where are the Chinese Q- basically? I will respond to this at
another time...if you don't mind.

Thanks
Andre