[MD] What is the oppostite of Quality?

[MarshaV]

Not this, not that is most appropriate, as in indivisible, undefinable and unknowable. 
 
 
 


On Jan 7, 2010, at 2:59 AM, John Carl wrote:

> "Perhaps not"?
> 
> Perhaps that's not a very definitive statement to run up one's philosophical
> flag pole.
> 
> Positive doesn't always mean subjectively positive.  Attilla the Hun seemed
> like a chaotic invader to his conquered territories,  but the mixing of
> social patterns produced lots of good in the long run.
> 
> So let's just say, DQ is positively oriented toward the evolution of the
> whole, even while seeming negative at times to the individual.
> 
> eh?
> 
> John
> 
> On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 6:44 PM, Dan Glover <daneglover at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> chaos
>> 
>> A new branch of science that deals with systems whose evolution
>> depends very sensitively upon the initial conditions. Turbulent flows
>> of fluids (such as white water in a river) and the prediction of the
>> weather are two areas where chaos theory has been applied with some
>> success. (www.dictionary.com)
>> 
>> I think it is pretty clear that this is not what Robert Pirsig means
>> by Dynamic Quality. I recall that I once asked him about whether it
>> was wise to say Dynamic Quality is always positive. He said (and I
>> paraphrase) perhaps not, that it might be better to say it's not this,
>> not that. It is in LILA'S CHILD toward the end.
>> 
>> 
>> On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 8:58 AM, Krimel <Krimel at krimel.com> wrote:
>>>> [Krimel]
>>>> What a depressing quote. Chaos is not always a destructive force in fact
>>>> it is the creative power of the universe. Order is a subset of chaos. If
>>>> this was a fairly new idea when Pirsig wrote Lila is was not 10 years
>>>> later. He really should know better.
>>> 
>>> [Steve]
>>> If you are calling chaos the creative power of the universe and order
>>> a subject of chaos, it sounds like what you are calling chaos Pirsig
>>> calls Quality.
>>> 
>>> [Krimel]
>>> Yes, and I have been doing so consistently for years now.
>>> 
>>> Just look at the quote Andre provided:
>>> 
>>> 'Dynamic Quality and chaos are both patternless, and so it would seem
>> they
>>> have a lot in common, particularly the fact that you can't say anything
>>> about them without getting into static patterns."
>>> 
>>> [Krimel]
>>> Yes, yes, you are almost there Bob. It is like the passage in Lila where
>> you
>>> say that the MoQ could almost be thought of as a Metaphysics of
>> Randomness.
>>> 
>>> [Unfortunately the quote continues...]
>>> "But if you do, you can say that Dynamic Quality is good and precedes
>> static
>>> improvement. It is the source of experience. Chaos, by contrast is the
>>> condition of total destruction. You can't call it either good or bad.
>>> It is not the source of anything'."
>>> 
>>> [Krimel]
>>> This just reduces DQ to anything that is "good" not all DQ is good and DQ
>>> does not always precede static improvement. Conversely chaos does not
>> always
>>> produce destruction. Selection of lottery tickets is a chaotic process
>> and
>>> it often produces enormous good for someone. Chaos only looks destructive
>>> because disordered states are much more likely than ordered states.
>>> 
>>> Chaos is a creative force in the universe because it means that nothing
>> is
>>> ever rigid and fixed and lawful. Everything is changing chaotically and
>>> there is always room of "oops" and "aha". The world is not a Newtonian
>>> billiard table, an idealized plane and hypothetical spheres. The world is
>> a
>>> pool hall with erratic lighting, free flowing alcohol and sexual tension.
>>> What determines whether or not the eight ball lands in the side pocket
>> is,
>>> more often than not, the whims of Bacchus and Eros not the Laws of
>> geometry
>>> and physics.
>>> 
>>> 
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