[MD] Pirsig and Jaynes in Bo's Meta-blender

[David Thomas]

> [Krimel]
> Yes it is complicated and what we have at present is a kind of
> impressionistic sketch of what is going on. Still it is refreshing to talk
> to someone who at least recognizes that biology is relevant. I spent about
> two years arguing just that point with people who think the mind has no real
> relation to the body.
[Dave]
Fear of the word "mind' seems to be a whole school of thought. Ditto on
"self" and "consciousness" Pirsig's rhetoric in ZaMM adds fuel and a
misunderstanding of Zen more.

> [Krimel]
> I usually refer to Jaynes' idea as interesting and worth considering but I
> thought subtlety would be lost in this context. I read his book way back
> when. I agree with Dennett assessment on this one. I think Marshall McLuhan
> may have also weighed in on the topic when talked about the way text changed
> the way people think and see the world. For example, reading requires
> practiced and unnatural control of the movement of our eye muscles. This
> would point toward the way in which intellectual tools and practices shape
> and alter brain structure. Research on meditators suggests much the same
> thing. The brain is not a muscle but it acts like one. If you use it a
> particular way, you get better at it and change the way it functions.
[Dave]
Austin's detailed recap of this research in "Zen and the Brain" does the
same. He goes so far as suggest that within a few years that science will
prove that mystical experiences are nothing more than psychological and
physiological states that can be induced with practice. Just like Buddha
claimed 2500 years ago. I saw the Dali Lama on PBS the other night pushing
for more testing. Now isn't that a refreshing approach on science coming
from a religious leader.

He also says that contrary popular belief Buddhism does not teach or preach
that there is no "Self". But uses koans that seem to say that as tools to
rebalance the brain so that rather than the ego's normal state of
(I,ME,MINE) on the left side, with practice it is toned down to (i.me,
mine.)  And the right side's attention is ramped up, or more in tune with
the "other". Also these changes with practice can lead to permanent physical
and biological change. Of course as a scientist he poses all this as
hypothesis waiting to be confirmed by further testing.

 The current downside is that on average it takes something like 20 to 30
years of pretty much full time dedicated practice to reach these levels and
only 10% who try ever make it to that level.

Dave