[MD] Metaphysics

[X Acto]

Does that mean science or theology is real by convention?
since they both are pattern.



----- Original Message ----
From: MarshaV <valkyr at att.net>
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Sent: Wed, January 20, 2010 9:45:45 PM
Subject: Re: [MD] Metaphysics



Patterns are real by convention, but not Real.  



On Jan 20, 2010, at 8:34 PM, X Acto wrote:

> What do you consider to be Real? 
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: MarshaV <valkyr at att.net>
> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Sent: Wed, January 20, 2010 3:45:04 AM
> Subject: Re: [MD] Metaphysics
> 
> 
> Hi Mark,
> 
> Science has represented patterns for good, but also patterns of great 
> destruction.  Theism has represented patterns for good, but also patterns
> of great destruction.  For me, they are both best understood as static 
> patterns of value, and not anything Real.  Not Real!!!  
> 
> I think what is dangerous is not to understand the nature of
> all static patterns of value.  There lies the freedom to choose.  imho 
> 
> 
> 
> Marsha 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Jan 19, 2010, at 10:04 PM, markhsmit wrote:
> 
>> 
>> Hi Marsha,
>> 
>> Yea, science is a useful tool, in the same way a hammer is.  When
>> science suddenly becomes the hammer of God, I must point out
>> that such a notion is dangerous.
>> 
>> Hi Mark,
>> 
>> I'm finding the more some strut their scientific stuff, the more
>> transparent their "stuff" becomes. It's very humorous. 
>> 
>> 
>> Marsha
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Jan 18, 2010, at 10:58 PM, markhsmit wrote:
>> 
>>> Marsha,
>>>  
>>> I see now. My tactic is more "how do you know something
>>> is true if you only read it". Yes, science is a faith, which means
>>> that if you do not question it, you are a true believer. While
>>> there is nothing wrong with this if used in a kind and altruistic
>>> way, it is dangerous when one tries to convert others.
>>>  
>>> Unquestioned belief in science allows for the manipulation
>>> of the masses. This is something I am truly against since
>>> I am for individualism. I believe Quality can best be expressed
>>> through the individual, and not through an institution.
>>>  
>>> This is the difference that I see between ZAMM and Lila. ZAMM
>>> is a story about a spiritual awakening, Lila is more about building
>>> a church, (imo). The more structure one puts up, the lower the
>>> Quality.
>>>  
>>> Mark
>>>  
>>>  
>>> Mark,
>>>  
>>> No sweet Mark, I think, like you, that science too often is accepted
>>> without question. I asked a question. I asked Krimel if Einstein's 
>>> general theory of relativity was science. No trap --- no trap, no cat,
>>> and no mouse. 
>>>  
>>>  
>>> Marsha
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>> On Jan 17, 2010, at 10:45 PM, markhsmit wrote:
>>>  
>>>> Marsha,
>>>> Oh, so you set a trap, eh. Cat and mouse? Catch Krimel out. 
>>>> I guess we all learn in our own way.
>>>> Mark
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>> No Mark, the subject was not the scientific method. The subject is deductive
>>>> logic which Krimel said might have problems because of NonEuclidean geometry 
>>>> such as Riemannian geometry, which Einstein used in the general theory of
>>>> relativity. But he'd rather dance away with a Ouiji board. Fine. 
>>>>  
>>>> Marsha 
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>> On Jan 17, 2010, at 11:27 AM, markhsmit wrote:
>>>>  
>>>>>  
>>>>>  
>>>>>> [Marsha]
>>>>>> I think I remember that Einstein used Riemannian geometry in the general
>>>>>> theory of relativity. 
>>>>>> Is the general theory of relativy science? 
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> [Krimel]
>>>>>> It is a work of theoretical physics.
>>>>>  
>>>>> Marsha:
>>>>> I guess you are saying that theoretical physics, Einstein's general theory 
>>>>> of relativity, is not science because it uses deductive logic which is not 
>>>>> the basis of the scientific method. 
>>>>>  
>>>>> [Krimel]
>>>>> Scientists employ any means they wish to construct a theory or a hypothesis.
>>>>> They can use induction or deduction. They can see it in a dream or get it
>>>>> from a Ouija board. But, the theory has to be testable, It needs to offer
>>>>> some improvement in our understanding or our ability to make predictions.
>>>>> That is, a new theory has to improve our ability to reduce uncertainty.
>>>>> Einstein's theory offered predictions about certain observable events that
>>>>> differed from Newton's theory.
>>>>> [Mark]
>>>>> Marsha,
>>>>> What you seem to be asking is what is the scientific method. As Krimel suggests, one
>>>>> of the results of the scientific method is predictability. In hindsight one could say
>>>>> that if predictability results, a scientific method was used. This kind of explanation
>>>>> is useful for illumination purposes. Another way to view it, is that the
>>>>> scientific method is really just an elaborate extension of what we all do every day.
>>>>> When you put your hand in the shower to see if it is warm enough, that is the
>>>>> scientific method. The science is predicting that at a certain interval the water will
>>>>> become warm enough to get in. To become more scientific about it, you would
>>>>> time the interval that it takes to get warm with a watch. If you pay attention, then
>>>>> you may notice that it takes longer if it is cold outside. So, you have to introduce
>>>>> a new variable, that is the temperature outside. Also the rate of warming depends
>>>>> on how fast the water is flowing. As the detail of these observations grow, the
>>>>> predictability gets better. This is no different from other empirical studies, they
>>>>> just get more and more complicated. Measurement, prediction, measurement
>>>>> prediction, introduction of new variable, prediction, measurement, test for accuracy.
>>>>>  
>>>>> Those that are good at this, compile many of these variables in their heads without
>>>>> knowing it and can take jumps. They can amalgamate seemingly unrelated observations
>>>>> and bring them into the equation. These genius leaps mark a good scientist, and
>>>>> are similar to genius leaps in art, sports, and, yes, even religion. Einstein was
>>>>> able to do this with general relativity. However to do so he had to go against
>>>>> conventional thinking. This is also the mark of a creative scientist, which
>>>>> are periodically needed to bridge seemingly wrong data. Many of Einstein's
>>>>> predictions took years to prove afterwards. He based much of his
>>>>> science on math, which has a remarkable property of predicting what
>>>>> we observe. The trick is trying to understand what the equations mean
>>>>> in the real world, and whether they are useful. An infinite number of
>>>>> equations can be formulated, only a few are useful. An intuitive
>>>>> grasp of the right choice is needed as it gets more complicated.
>>>>>  
>>>>> So, there is nothing mysterious about the scientific method, you use
>>>>> it all the time.
>>>>>  
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Mark
>>>>>  
>>>>>  
>>>>>  
>>>>>  
>>>>>  
>>>>>  
>>>>>  
>>>>>  
>>>>>  
>>>>>  
>>>>> _______________________________________________________________________
>>>>>  
>>>>> Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars... 
>>>>>  
>>>>>  
>>>>>  
>>>>>  
>>>>>  
>>>>>  
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>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>> _______________________________________________________________________
>>>>  
>>>> Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars... 
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>>  
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>>>  
>>>  
>>> _______________________________________________________________________
>>>  
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>>>  
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>> 
>> _______________________________________________________________________
>> 
>> Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars... 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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> 
>  
> _______________________________________________________________________
>  
> Shoot for the moon.  Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars...    
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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