[MD] Metaphysics
MarshaV
valkyr at att.net
Fri Jan 22 06:24:19 PST 2010
Yea, and so are puppies and granite.
On Jan 22, 2010, at 8:44 AM, X Acto wrote:
> Does that mean science or theology is real by convention?
> since they both are pattern.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: MarshaV <valkyr at att.net>
> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Sent: Wed, January 20, 2010 9:45:45 PM
> Subject: Re: [MD] Metaphysics
>
>
>
> Patterns are real by convention, but not Real.
>
>
>
> On Jan 20, 2010, at 8:34 PM, X Acto wrote:
>
>> What do you consider to be Real?
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: MarshaV <valkyr at att.net>
>> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>> Sent: Wed, January 20, 2010 3:45:04 AM
>> Subject: Re: [MD] Metaphysics
>>
>>
>> Hi Mark,
>>
>> Science has represented patterns for good, but also patterns of great
>> destruction. Theism has represented patterns for good, but also patterns
>> of great destruction. For me, they are both best understood as static
>> patterns of value, and not anything Real. Not Real!!!
>>
>> I think what is dangerous is not to understand the nature of
>> all static patterns of value. There lies the freedom to choose. imho
>>
>>
>>
>> Marsha
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jan 19, 2010, at 10:04 PM, markhsmit wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Hi Marsha,
>>>
>>> Yea, science is a useful tool, in the same way a hammer is. When
>>> science suddenly becomes the hammer of God, I must point out
>>> that such a notion is dangerous.
>>>
>>> Hi Mark,
>>>
>>> I'm finding the more some strut their scientific stuff, the more
>>> transparent their "stuff" becomes. It's very humorous.
>>>
>>>
>>> Marsha
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jan 18, 2010, at 10:58 PM, markhsmit wrote:
>>>
>>>> Marsha,
>>>>
>>>> I see now. My tactic is more "how do you know something
>>>> is true if you only read it". Yes, science is a faith, which means
>>>> that if you do not question it, you are a true believer. While
>>>> there is nothing wrong with this if used in a kind and altruistic
>>>> way, it is dangerous when one tries to convert others.
>>>>
>>>> Unquestioned belief in science allows for the manipulation
>>>> of the masses. This is something I am truly against since
>>>> I am for individualism. I believe Quality can best be expressed
>>>> through the individual, and not through an institution.
>>>>
>>>> This is the difference that I see between ZAMM and Lila. ZAMM
>>>> is a story about a spiritual awakening, Lila is more about building
>>>> a church, (imo). The more structure one puts up, the lower the
>>>> Quality.
>>>>
>>>> Mark
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Mark,
>>>>
>>>> No sweet Mark, I think, like you, that science too often is accepted
>>>> without question. I asked a question. I asked Krimel if Einstein's
>>>> general theory of relativity was science. No trap --- no trap, no cat,
>>>> and no mouse.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Marsha
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jan 17, 2010, at 10:45 PM, markhsmit wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Marsha,
>>>>> Oh, so you set a trap, eh. Cat and mouse? Catch Krimel out.
>>>>> I guess we all learn in our own way.
>>>>> Mark
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> No Mark, the subject was not the scientific method. The subject is deductive
>>>>> logic which Krimel said might have problems because of NonEuclidean geometry
>>>>> such as Riemannian geometry, which Einstein used in the general theory of
>>>>> relativity. But he'd rather dance away with a Ouiji board. Fine.
>>>>>
>>>>> Marsha
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jan 17, 2010, at 11:27 AM, markhsmit wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [Marsha]
>>>>>>> I think I remember that Einstein used Riemannian geometry in the general
>>>>>>> theory of relativity.
>>>>>>> Is the general theory of relativy science?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [Krimel]
>>>>>>> It is a work of theoretical physics.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Marsha:
>>>>>> I guess you are saying that theoretical physics, Einstein's general theory
>>>>>> of relativity, is not science because it uses deductive logic which is not
>>>>>> the basis of the scientific method.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [Krimel]
>>>>>> Scientists employ any means they wish to construct a theory or a hypothesis.
>>>>>> They can use induction or deduction. They can see it in a dream or get it
>>>>>> from a Ouija board. But, the theory has to be testable, It needs to offer
>>>>>> some improvement in our understanding or our ability to make predictions.
>>>>>> That is, a new theory has to improve our ability to reduce uncertainty.
>>>>>> Einstein's theory offered predictions about certain observable events that
>>>>>> differed from Newton's theory.
>>>>>> [Mark]
>>>>>> Marsha,
>>>>>> What you seem to be asking is what is the scientific method. As Krimel suggests, one
>>>>>> of the results of the scientific method is predictability. In hindsight one could say
>>>>>> that if predictability results, a scientific method was used. This kind of explanation
>>>>>> is useful for illumination purposes. Another way to view it, is that the
>>>>>> scientific method is really just an elaborate extension of what we all do every day.
>>>>>> When you put your hand in the shower to see if it is warm enough, that is the
>>>>>> scientific method. The science is predicting that at a certain interval the water will
>>>>>> become warm enough to get in. To become more scientific about it, you would
>>>>>> time the interval that it takes to get warm with a watch. If you pay attention, then
>>>>>> you may notice that it takes longer if it is cold outside. So, you have to introduce
>>>>>> a new variable, that is the temperature outside. Also the rate of warming depends
>>>>>> on how fast the water is flowing. As the detail of these observations grow, the
>>>>>> predictability gets better. This is no different from other empirical studies, they
>>>>>> just get more and more complicated. Measurement, prediction, measurement
>>>>>> prediction, introduction of new variable, prediction, measurement, test for accuracy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Those that are good at this, compile many of these variables in their heads without
>>>>>> knowing it and can take jumps. They can amalgamate seemingly unrelated observations
>>>>>> and bring them into the equation. These genius leaps mark a good scientist, and
>>>>>> are similar to genius leaps in art, sports, and, yes, even religion. Einstein was
>>>>>> able to do this with general relativity. However to do so he had to go against
>>>>>> conventional thinking. This is also the mark of a creative scientist, which
>>>>>> are periodically needed to bridge seemingly wrong data. Many of Einstein's
>>>>>> predictions took years to prove afterwards. He based much of his
>>>>>> science on math, which has a remarkable property of predicting what
>>>>>> we observe. The trick is trying to understand what the equations mean
>>>>>> in the real world, and whether they are useful. An infinite number of
>>>>>> equations can be formulated, only a few are useful. An intuitive
>>>>>> grasp of the right choice is needed as it gets more complicated.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, there is nothing mysterious about the scientific method, you use
>>>>>> it all the time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> Mark
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________________________________
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________________________________
>>>>>
>>>>> Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________________________________
>>>>
>>>> Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>> _______________________________________________________________________
>>>
>>> Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars...
>>>
>>>
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>>
>> _______________________________________________________________________
>>
>> Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars...
>>
>>
>>
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>
> _______________________________________________________________________
>
> Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars...
>
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