[MD] Intellect's Symposium

MarshaV valkyr at att.net
Wed Jan 27 00:45:55 PST 2010
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John,

And this is why I call my understanding of Quality, unpatterned experience and patterned experience, and not Dynamic Quality and static quality, although I can very easily equate patterned experience with static patterns of value.  I have only been talking about how I (conventional i) relate to some, what i find to be interesting, experiences.

There's a very religious snake tattooed on my wrist that will bite you if you get too close.  


Marsha 




On Jan 27, 2010, at 1:26 AM, John Carl wrote:

> I like patterns too, Marsha.  Realizing a pattern that you've never noticed
> before, or like when Pirsig noticed patterns that nobody noticed before,
> that's the biggest thrill there is.  Better than a roller coaster ride.
> 
> "Realization" describes it.  What a fascinating thing, real-izing.  Before
> realization, an amorphous, undifferentiated bunch of nonsense suddenly
> "makes sense" - becomes real.  The Conceptualization of the Elephant by the
> Blind, is a realization.
> 
> Perhaps your realization of unpatterned value was important and valuable to
> you because it gave you part of "the big picture" that was previously
> missing.  That would make sense to me.   Positing such as the basis of
> being, as some are wont to do, does not.   If I seem overly critical of
> "unpatterned awareness" that you are talking about,  it is not as
> experience, but the basis of experience that I have problems with it.
> 
> And you gotta admit, the analogy of Snake-handlin' religious frenzy was kind
> of amusing, All things considered.
> 
> Oblivion.  A nice place to visit but I wouldn't wanna be FROM there.
> 
> 
> John
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 6:38 PM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> Hi John,
>> 
>> I said my train of thoughts went straight to oblivion, not my awareness.
>> It was interesting.
>> 
>> I like patterns, John, especially Bach and Haydn on my iPod.
>> 
>> 
>> Marsha
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Jan 26, 2010, at 7:57 PM, John Carl wrote:
>> 
>>> And back to the issue, How is oblivious experience at all preferable or
>>> reccomendable over awareness?
>>> 
>>> Pragmatic John
>>> 
>>> On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 12:21 AM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> How about this?  I pulled a switch and instead of going through
>> awareness,
>>>> the train of thoughts went straight to oblivion.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Jan 26, 2010, at 3:04 AM, MarshaV wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> John,
>>>>> 
>>>>> I'm not a religious person and have no idea what a religious experience
>>>> would be.
>>>>> 
>>>>> For weeks it felt like something was going to happen, like my mind was
>>>> squinting, or something, and then it happened.  It was visual.  I was
>> seeing
>>>> but their were no thoughts in my head, but I was aware.  It was seeing,
>> but
>>>> not seeing anything.   It lasted about 5 minutes, no less, but I don't
>> know
>>>> for sure.  I was flabbergasted because it was so obvious.  OMG,
>> unpatterned
>>>> experience!!!  Or, OMG I was totally aware without thinking.  And then I
>>>> began not to believe my own experience, so I did on my own.  Naturally,
>> I
>>>> was excited.  The next day I did it again of my own volition.  I was
>>>> overjoyed, of course.  It was wonderful.  It was amazing.  I tried it
>> again
>>>> about a week later, and made it happen, but I haven't tried it since,
>> which
>>>> is sad.  Life interfered, or more probably I'm lazy and ungrateful.  But
>> it
>>>> was "real".  Yet it's no big deal; it's what naturally happens.  I
>> guess.
>>>> Oh, I don't know; I don't know anything.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I do not often enough sit in meditation, but do try to keep a
>> mindfulness
>>>> throughout my day.  I think there is a relationship, but I'm guessing.
>> I
>>>> had a very formal meditation practice for a few years and was able to
>> watch
>>>> my thoughts.  I have no trouble saying that's watching patterns flicker
>>>> through mind, and that is why I go on about Quality (unpatterned
>> experience
>>>> and patterned experience); both have been experienced.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Maybe you'll think I have just described indigestion.  Maybe if I
>> hadn't
>>>> had such experiences I'd think the same thing.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> unMarsha
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Jan 25, 2010, at 7:58 PM, John Carl wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> sounds almost like a religious experience Marsha.  Did it feel that
>> way?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 11:26 AM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Hi John,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I was teasing.  It never happened while I was formally
>>>>>>> meditating.  I don't know why or how it happened, but
>>>>>>> it did.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Marsha
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Jan 25, 2010, at 1:21 PM, MarshaV wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> John,
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Yes, the 'idea' would be a pattern, but an experience
>>>>>>>> need not be patterned.  Instead of tenderness, try a
>>>>>>>> little meditation.  Or, you once offered to hit me on the
>>>>>>>> back of the head with a 2x4, may I offer to do the same
>>>>>>>> to you.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Marsha
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Jan 25, 2010, at 1:03 PM, John Carl wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Do you mean I'd find unpatterned experience in Jane Austen?  I've
>>>> read a
>>>>>>>>> couple of hers, and I have no idea what would qualify.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> In fact, the very idea that anything could qualify as unpatterned,
>> is
>>>> a
>>>>>>>>> pattern.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Maybe I'm just too metaphysically picky.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 9:16 AM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On Jan 25, 2010, at 12:04 PM, John Carl wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> There's no such thing as
>>>>>>>>>>> "un-patterned experience"
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> John,
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> There are such experiences, but not for you.   And I'm sure it
>>>>>>>>>> is being studied as a attribute of meditation..  I bet you might
>>>>>>>>>> find something in books by James Austin.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Marsha
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Shoot for the moon.  Even if you miss, you'll land among the
>>>> stars...
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
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>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________________________________
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Shoot for the moon.  Even if you miss, you'll land among the
>> stars...
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
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>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>> _______________________________________________________________________
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Shoot for the moon.  Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars...
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
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>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________________________________
>>>>> 
>>>>> Shoot for the moon.  Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars...
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
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>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________________________________
>>>> 
>>>> Shoot for the moon.  Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars...
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
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>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________________________________
>> 
>> Shoot for the moon.  Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars...
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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_______________________________________________________________________
   
Shoot for the moon.  Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars...
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