[MD] Intellect's Symposium

[John Carl]

I like patterns too, Marsha.  Realizing a pattern that you've never noticed
before, or like when Pirsig noticed patterns that nobody noticed before,
that's the biggest thrill there is.  Better than a roller coaster ride.

"Realization" describes it.  What a fascinating thing, real-izing.  Before
realization, an amorphous, undifferentiated bunch of nonsense suddenly
"makes sense" - becomes real.  The Conceptualization of the Elephant by the
Blind, is a realization.

 Perhaps your realization of unpatterned value was important and valuable to
you because it gave you part of "the big picture" that was previously
missing.  That would make sense to me.   Positing such as the basis of
being, as some are wont to do, does not.   If I seem overly critical of
"unpatterned awareness" that you are talking about,  it is not as
experience, but the basis of experience that I have problems with it.

And you gotta admit, the analogy of Snake-handlin' religious frenzy was kind
of amusing, All things considered.

Oblivion.  A nice place to visit but I wouldn't wanna be FROM there.


John



On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 6:38 PM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:

>
> Hi John,
>
> I said my train of thoughts went straight to oblivion, not my awareness.
> It was interesting.
>
> I like patterns, John, especially Bach and Haydn on my iPod.
>
>
> Marsha
>
>
>
>
>
> On Jan 26, 2010, at 7:57 PM, John Carl wrote:
>
> > And back to the issue, How is oblivious experience at all preferable or
> > reccomendable over awareness?
> >
> > Pragmatic John
> >
> > On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 12:21 AM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> How about this?  I pulled a switch and instead of going through
> awareness,
> >> the train of thoughts went straight to oblivion.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Jan 26, 2010, at 3:04 AM, MarshaV wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> John,
> >>>
> >>> I'm not a religious person and have no idea what a religious experience
> >> would be.
> >>>
> >>> For weeks it felt like something was going to happen, like my mind was
> >> squinting, or something, and then it happened.  It was visual.  I was
> seeing
> >> but their were no thoughts in my head, but I was aware.  It was seeing,
> but
> >> not seeing anything.   It lasted about 5 minutes, no less, but I don't
> know
> >> for sure.  I was flabbergasted because it was so obvious.  OMG,
> unpatterned
> >> experience!!!  Or, OMG I was totally aware without thinking.  And then I
> >> began not to believe my own experience, so I did on my own.  Naturally,
> I
> >> was excited.  The next day I did it again of my own volition.  I was
> >> overjoyed, of course.  It was wonderful.  It was amazing.  I tried it
> again
> >> about a week later, and made it happen, but I haven't tried it since,
> which
> >> is sad.  Life interfered, or more probably I'm lazy and ungrateful.  But
> it
> >> was "real".  Yet it's no big deal; it's what naturally happens.  I
> guess.
> >> Oh, I don't know; I don't know anything.
> >>>
> >>> I do not often enough sit in meditation, but do try to keep a
> mindfulness
> >> throughout my day.  I think there is a relationship, but I'm guessing.
>  I
> >> had a very formal meditation practice for a few years and was able to
> watch
> >> my thoughts.  I have no trouble saying that's watching patterns flicker
> >> through mind, and that is why I go on about Quality (unpatterned
> experience
> >> and patterned experience); both have been experienced.
> >>>
> >>> Maybe you'll think I have just described indigestion.  Maybe if I
> hadn't
> >> had such experiences I'd think the same thing.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> unMarsha
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Jan 25, 2010, at 7:58 PM, John Carl wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> sounds almost like a religious experience Marsha.  Did it feel that
> way?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 11:26 AM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hi John,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I was teasing.  It never happened while I was formally
> >>>>> meditating.  I don't know why or how it happened, but
> >>>>> it did.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Marsha
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Jan 25, 2010, at 1:21 PM, MarshaV wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> John,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Yes, the 'idea' would be a pattern, but an experience
> >>>>>> need not be patterned.  Instead of tenderness, try a
> >>>>>> little meditation.  Or, you once offered to hit me on the
> >>>>>> back of the head with a 2x4, may I offer to do the same
> >>>>>> to you.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Marsha
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Jan 25, 2010, at 1:03 PM, John Carl wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Do you mean I'd find unpatterned experience in Jane Austen?  I've
> >> read a
> >>>>>>> couple of hers, and I have no idea what would qualify.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> In fact, the very idea that anything could qualify as unpatterned,
> is
> >> a
> >>>>>>> pattern.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Maybe I'm just too metaphysically picky.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> John
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 9:16 AM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Jan 25, 2010, at 12:04 PM, John Carl wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> There's no such thing as
> >>>>>>>>> "un-patterned experience"
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> John,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> There are such experiences, but not for you.   And I'm sure it
> >>>>>>>> is being studied as a attribute of meditation..  I bet you might
> >>>>>>>> find something in books by James Austin.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Marsha
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >> _______________________________________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Shoot for the moon.  Even if you miss, you'll land among the
> >> stars...
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
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> >> _______________________________________________________________________
> >>>>>>
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> >>>
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> >> _______________________________________________________________________
> >>
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> >>
> >>
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>
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