[MD] grmbl

[skutvik at online.no]

For Ron 

31 May. 

Bodvar before:
> > OK this is me not Platt, but subjects and objects - along with all S/O
> > dualisms - came to pass with the Greeks. Isn't it possible to get this
> > ESSENTIAL message into your head? (ZAMM 382) 

    ZAMM: What is essential to understand at this point is that until 
    now   there was no such thing as mind and matter, subject and 
        object, form and substance. Those divisions are just 
    dialectical     inventions that came later. The modern mind 
    sometimes tends     to balk at the thought of these dichotomies 
    being inventions     and says, ``Well, the divisions were there 
    for the Greeks to     discover,'' and you have to say, ``Where 
    were they? Point to     them!'' And the modern mind gets a little 
    confused and     wonders what this is all about anyway, and 
    still believes the     divisions were there. But they weren't, as 
    Phædrus said. They     are just ghosts, immortal gods of the 
    modern mythos which     appear to us to be real because we 
    are in that mythos. But in  reality they are just as much an 
    artistic creation as the     anthropomorphic Gods they 
    replaced.   

Ron:
> This passage illustrates the concept that the s/o distinction is an
> intellectual invention, just like Gods, ghosts and myths. S/O appears
> to be real but it is'nt it's just as made up as the Gods it replaces.
> You and Mary maintain that S/O was there for the greeks to discover
> just as MoQ was there for Pirsig to discover. This Quote contradicts
> that assertion. 

At the ZAMM stage there was only one static fall-out from DQ, namely 
SOM - also called INTELLECT! Thus the above passage says that 
until the S/O-intellectual fall-out happened, there were no S/Os. This is  
the point of ZAMM. That book saw a paradisaic  Aretê past, then came 
the evil SOM that destroyed the idyll. 

However, when the complete MOQ was constructed where the 
intellectual level is out of the social, it's more than plain that "the 
mythological past" that preceded the intellectual level is the social 
reality. It's also plain that either must ZAMM be harmonized with the 
MOQ or the MOQ must be scrapped, but for some mysterious reason 
Pirsig has refused to do it and the alleged MOQ "doctors" .... ha!!!. 

Your point about SOM "where there for the Greeks to discover" is 
nonsense, nowhere do Mary or I make such a claim. SOM was an 
expansion of the Q-space and the MOQ the construction of the Q-
space. If anyone violates the "for XX to discover" it's the DMB faction 
that you at times seem to belong to - by the Quality/MOQ "meta-
metaphysics", but this is above your head I guess.

Bodvar