[MD] loopty-loop

[MarshaV]

Ian,

That may be.  I would like to read more.  He seems like not only 
an interesting thinker, but a very nice man.  But at this point he
does seem to consider the brain as something 'real'.  

I have to confess, though, I do not share his way of loving math.  I 
have a tendency to want to rip those pages dealing with numbers, 
out of the book with my teeth, shake them back and forth, and toss 
them out of my nest, with a Humpf!   -  I have some lectures coming 
up concerning the wonders of mathematical thinking.  Maybe the 
lectures will seduce me into reconsidering Hofstadter's point-of-view.  
I always loved math, but...    



Marsha
 
 



On Jun 1, 2010, at 3:26 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote:

> Hi Marsha, that's why I like Hofstadter ... you said
> 
> "He does plenty of talking about patterns, and I did get a little
> hopeful, but no he's a materialist.  One wants to ask him why wouldn't
> he think the same patterns that create the self, creates objects."
> 
> I believe he does think that too. It's just not the subject of the
> book you are currently reading.
> 
> Ian
> 
> On Mon, May 31, 2010 at 5:42 PM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Hi Platt,
>> 
>> Yes, it does seem that way.  He does plenty of talking about patterns, and
>> I did get a little hopeful, but no he's a materialist.  One wants to ask him why
>> wouldn't he think the same patterns that create the self, creates objects.  Seems
>> like an obvious consideration.
>> 
>> Wonder what it will take?  But you are correct, it is too bad.
>> 
>> 
>> Marsha
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On May 31, 2010, at 11:58 AM, Platt Holden wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi Marsha,
>>> 
>>> Like most academics, Hofstadter buys into SOM hook, line and sinker. Too
>>> bad, really.
>>> 
>>> Platt
>>> 
>>> On Mon, May 31, 2010 at 6:50 AM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>  "What would make a human brain a candidate for housing a loop of
>>>> self-representation?  Why would a fly brain or a mosquito brain not be just
>>>> as valid a candidate?  Why, for that matter, not a bacterium, an ovum, a
>>>> sperm, a virus, a tomato plant, a tomato, or a pencil?  The answer should be
>>>> clear:  a human brain is a representational system that knows no bounds in
>>>> terms of the extensibility or flexibility of its categories.  A mosquito
>>>> brain, by contrast, is a tiny representational system that contains
>>>> practically no categories at all, never mind being flexible and extensible.
>>>> Very small representational systems, such as those of bacteria, ova,
>>>> sperms, plants, thermostats, and so forth, do not enjoy the luxury of
>>>> self-representation.  And a tomato and a pencil are not representational
>>>> systems at all, so for them, the story ends right there (sorry, little
>>>> tomato! sorry, little pencil!).
>>>>    "So a human brain is a strong candidate for having the potential of
>>>> rich perceptual feedback, and thus rich self-reresentation.  But what kinds
>>>> of perceptual cycles do we get involved in?  We begin life with the most
>>>> elementary sorts of feedback about ourselves, which stimulate us to
>>>> formulate categories for our most obvious body parts, and building on this
>>>> basic pedestal, we soon develop a sense for our bodies as flexible physical
>>>> objects.  In the meantime, as we receive rewards for various actions and
>>>> punishments for others, we begin to develop a more abstract sense of "good"
>>>> and "bad", as well as notions of guilt and pride, and our sense of ourselves
>>>> as abstract entities that have the power to decide to make things happen
>>>> (such as continuing to run up a steep hill even though our legs are begging
>>>> us to just walk) begins to take root.
>>>>   "It is crucial to our young lives that we hone our developing
>>>> self-symbol as precisely as possible.  We want (and need) to find out where
>>>> we belong in all sorts of social hierarchies and classes, and sometimes,
>>>> even if we don't want to know thee things, we find out anyway.  For
>>>> instance, we are all told, early on, that we are "cute"; in some of us,
>>>> however, this message is reinforced far more strongly than in others.  In
>>>> this manner, each of us comes to realize that we are "good-looking" or
>>>> "gullible" or "cheeky" or "shy" or "spoiled" or "funny" or "lazy" or
>>>> "original", or whatever.  Dozens of such labels and concepts accrete to our
>>>> growing self-symbols.
>>>>   "As we go through thousands of experiences large and small, our
>>>> representation of these experiences likewise accrete to our self-symbols.
>>>> Of course a memory of a visit to the Grand Canyon, say, is attached not
>>>> only to our self-symbol but to many other symbols in our brains, but our
>>>> self-symbol is enriched and rendered more complex by this attachment."
>>>>        (Hofstadter, Douglas,'I Am A Strange Loop', pp.182-183)
>>>> 
>>>> ---
>>>> 
>>>> A extremely interesting explanation of self-forming, yet ALL in this
>>>> explanation are patterns and analogs including the concept of a "human
>>>> brain" (sorry little marsha).
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Does the concept 'dna' as a pattern have any more substance for the
>>>> biologist than for the police officer?
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ___
>>>> 
>>>> 
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