[MD] The Quality/MOQ meta-metaphysics

[Horse]

Hi Bo

I doubt there'll be a great amount of disagreement with Dave re: the mythos.
As I said in a previous post:

On 26/06/2010 00:47, Horse wrote:
> Hi Krim
>
> I think that both Mythos and Logos are tools of the Intellectual level 
> (ideas about ideas) that use the Social level to propagate heir 
> content - and I think this is probably why Pirsig sees Culture as a 
> combination of Intellectual patterns and Social patterns. Ideas on 
> their own are pretty much locked into the Intellectual level and 
> require Social level practices in order to shift and spread from one 
> location (e.g me) to other locations (e.g. you and others on this list). 

The mythos, although originating for the most part at the intellectual 
level is dominant at the social level. There are parallels here with, 
for example, the law. Both are Intellectual in origin, and dominant at 
the social level. There are aspects of the mythos that are also similar 
to the law, in that part of the mythos' purpose is rein in biological 
(anti-social) behaviour. Do what the gods want or else you're in for a 
whole lot of pain. The mythos has other purposes as well such as 
explaining how the world began, why our tribe is justified in stomping 
on yours etc. etc. but notice that it is still to do with ideas and the 
mythos is still an intellectual tool (ideas about ideas).
Also note that both the mythos and the logos are still centred around 
memes - different types of memes but memes nonetheless.

At least that's how I see it and unlike you Bo, I'm open to discussion 
and, where it makes sense, to modification of my ideas - I may be right 
or I may be wrong, but my ego won't blind me to common sense. I also 
don't have to mangle the MoQ, resort to calling Pirsig either a coward 
or not understanding his own work or talk complete gibberish in order to 
put those ideas across.

To be sure, there are areas where I have minor disagreements with Pirsig 
- such as the age of intellectual patterns of value - but I don't think 
that this either undermines or damages the MoQ in any way.

Anyway, I'm sure that if Dave has a major disagreement with me he'll say 
so. If he does we'll have a discussion about it and see where we go from 
there. What I'm quite sure about though is that neither of us will need 
the SOL to figure out or solve any differences we may have.

Cheers


Horse


On 27/06/2010 19:48, skutvik at online.no wrote:
> Horse
>
> 26 June you wrote:
>
>    
>> Another disagreement here. The mythos is not the social level, it is
>> the means by which ideas propagate. Ideas about Gods and such but
>> still ideas nonetheless. Both mythos and logos are tools. You really
>> have lost your way with the MoQ.
>>      
> Check with DMB. In a recent post he made exactly that equation:
> Mythos = social value. Logos = intellectual ditto. He is the authority in
> your quarters... no? And that is another SOL proof is unnecessary to
> say.
>
> Bodvar
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>> Horse
>>
>> On 26/06/2010 09:30, skutvik at online.no wrote:
>>      
>>> Krimel
>>>
>>> 25 June:
>>>
>>> Horse had said:
>>>
>>>        
>>>> As far as I can see, your biggest mistake is to confuse the data of
>>>> the intellectual level with the tools that manipulate that data.
>>>> The intellectual level is composed of ideas (data) and SOM, MoQ,
>>>> metaphysics in general, science, philosophy, mathematics etc. are
>>>> the means by which they are ordered, manipulated and presented
>>>> (tools - or ideas about ideas). At least, that's my take on it.
>>>> Ideas can be good or bad, supported or unsupported, weird or normal
>>>> and a number of shades in between! Similarly, the tools used (ideas
>>>> about ideas) can be simple or complicated, complete or incomplete
>>>> etc. etc.
>>>>
>>>>          
>>>
>>>        
>>>> [Krimel]
>>>> That is pretty close the position I have pushed for. I wonder if
>>>> you would agree that this puts both the Mythos and the Logos on the
>>>> intellectual level as well?
>>>>
>>>>          
>>> I do hope that Horse reads this sees what strange bedfellows his
>>> anti- SOLism brings. You bet that it puts the Mythos (social level)
>>> and Logos (Intellectual level) on the "intellectual level". SOM's
>>> philosophical idealism makes absolutely everything "intellectual" in
>>> the Intellect=Mind sense.
>>>
>>> Bodvar
>>>
>>>
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>>>
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>>>        
>> -- 
>>
>> "Without music to decorate it, time is just a bunch of boring
>> production deadlines or dates by which bills must be paid." - Frank
>> Zappa
>>
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>>      
>
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>    

-- 

"Without music to decorate it, time is just a bunch of boring production deadlines or dates by which bills must be paid."
— Frank Zappa