[MD] New Model Army, Mystic(DQ) Experience, and Religion (SQ) as Power

[Stephen Hannon]

[Arlo previously]
What you are pointing out (and I agree) is the manipulation of religious
power structures by political power structures, or better said, the
manipulation of religious rhetoric to tie specific "religious salvation" for
the masses into their support of social-political power of governments,
corporations, economic interests, dictatorial interests, etc. This is
precisely what CAN (and DOES) occur when "religion" is more about the static
patterns of its particular myths and abandons any dynamic component. People
conflate "supporting the church" with "being religious". One need only to
look at US and World headlines from any news source to see this.

[DMB]
That's pretty much how I see it. The conflicts between nations and peoples
wouldn't just disappear if we were somehow able to remove the religious
component, but I think it would be a lot less nasty and lethal.

[Steve H]
So are you saying the church is incapable of change?  I'm more
optimistic than that, and it has changed significantly many times
throughout history.

[DMB]
A lot of people are convinced they stole the last two elections as
well. I think these guys are just dripping with religiosity and
contempt for demoncracy. I think they have no respect for human rights
and they are profoundly anti-intellectual too. This is not a
conspiracy theory, just a list of activities that anyone can read
about in a newspaper. But these events, taken together, paint a pretty
depressing picture of that long slide back to Victorianism, back to
social level values.

[Steve H]
Again, do you see no POSSIBILITY for change?  Social level values are
not inherently bad, they are just lower than intellectual values.  I'm
trying to put the church in its place, you are trying to destroy it.

[DMB]
Exactly. Well said. That's what I was trying to say. Its sadly ironic that
the myths and metaphors have become the dirt on the window instead of the
window itself. Its even more sad and more ironic that we seem to have MOQers
who would celebrate the dirt and condemn the windows.

[Steve H]
More blaming of the institution instead of the wrongdoers within it.
This is like saying: "There are people in the media, who are
attempting to manipulate the people's minds, and because these people
exist, all media must be abolished."  As I understand it, your
argument is "There are theists, who attempt to manipualte the people's
minds, and because these people exist, all theism must be abolished."
I find it sad and ironic when someone supports a metaphysics of
everything and then tries to destroy something that he doesn't believe
fits.

Regards,
Steve H

On 8/8/06, david buchanan <dmbuchanan at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Arlo said to Steve:
> What you are pointing out (and I agree) is the manipulation of religious
> power structures by political power structures, or better said, the
> manipulation of religious rhetoric to tie specific "religious salvation" for
> the masses into their support of social-political power of governments,
> corporations, economic interests, dictatorial interests, etc. This is
> precisely what CAN (and DOES) occur when "religion" is more about the static
> patterns of its particular myths and abandons any dynamic component. People
> conflate "supporting the church" with "being religious". One need only to
> look at US and World headlines from any news source to see this.
>
> dmb says:
> That's pretty much how I see it. The conflicts between nations and peoples
> wouldn't just disappear if we were somehow able to remove the religious
> component, but I think it would be a lot less nasty and lethal. What I'm
> seeing in the news headlines are a bunch partisans who talk about their
> enemies in terms of good and evil. There is a lot of demonizaton on all
> sides so that the enemy is less than human. Even the so-called diplomats
> will sit at the UN and describe the other side with a lot of overheated
> rhetoric. If we took out the whole God-is-on-my-side thing it would be far,
> far easier to resolve conflicts over land and oil and such. You know what,
> all three of the Abrahamic religions believe that they much be in control of
> the same little peice of real estate in order for their prophecies to be
> fulfilled? If memory serves, this spot is known as the Dome of the Rock.
>
> John Stewart and friends did a hilarous send up recently. Three reporters,
> each one speaking from a different spot in the middle east and each
> representing the views of the locals, all pointed out how God had promised
> this land to THEIR people and not the others. The fake reporters acted like
> this was a big surprize, and when they realized that God had promised this
> same piece of land to three different people of three different religions,
> they started talking about God like he was some kind of three-timing ladies
> man. You had to be there, I guess. It was brilliant and hilarous. Anyway,
> that's the kind of thing I'm talking about. American evangelicals, for the
> most part, give unqualified supports to Israel's foreign policies because
> they believe that their temple must be re-bulit before Jesus can return. I
> kid you not. Tens of millions of adult Americans really believe this stuff.
> And when you think you are in a battle with cosmic evil, you pull out all
> the stops and fight like there's no tomorrow.
>
> Anyway, to answer Gav's question, no. I was not molested by priests as a
> kid. As I recall, there simply came a point where religion stopped making
> sense, when I was around 12 years old. Before that, I was really into it. I
> found the whole rapture thing to be quite fascinating and entertained my
> friends with descriptions of the last days and all that. But then one day I
> asked my mom if she really, really believed that the Bible gave us all the
> answers. And I remember being so very disappointed when she said yes. That
> can't be true, I thought, and if it were true then things were gonna be
> really, really boring for the rest of my life. So anyway, its not that I was
> traumatized by this. It just started looking kinda stupid to me. Mostly, my
> concern on this topic simply comes from watching current events unfold.
> Reagan was elected when I was a freshman and I was attending a very
> conservative college where everyone was really psyched about that. I've been
> watching this movement for twenty five years - and not from a distance
> either. I also worked in talk radio during the Clinton years and saw this
> same movement in attack mode. And its gotten much, much worse under the
> currrent administration. Hear me now and believe me later. The United States
> is seriously flirting with fascism and theocracy. If we don't puts the
> brakes on this shit - and I mean soon - this experiment with democracy will
> have failed. I don't mean to be overly dramatic, but we Americans do live in
> a time when the President talks about nations in terms of good and evil, who
> has instituted a domestic spying program, suspended certain rights, mocked
> the Geneva Conventions, sent a decidedly undiplomatic hothead UN-hater to
> represent us at the world body, and sent this nation to war on false
> pretenses with a plan based on wishes and lies. A lot of people are
> convinced they stole the last two elections as well. I think these guys are
> just dripping with religiosity and contempt for demoncracy. I think they
> have no respect for human rights and they are profoundly anti-intellectual
> too. This is not a conspiracy theory, just a list of activities that anyone
> can read about in a newspaper. But these events, taken together, paint a
> pretty depressing picture of that long slide back to Victorianism, back to
> social level values.
>
> Steve said:
> I don't mind if theism is questioned, challenged, debated, but to me that
> sounded more like an attack or a call to arms.
>
> Arlo replied:
> It is a call to arms, against static power institutions that have turned
> spirituality into a device to secure their own power of others. Why
> shouldn't we rage against that machine? It is gross hypocrisy to give those
> seeking enlightenment the very metaphors designed for that purpose, and then
> blind them with the language of subservience and obedience to their social
> power. In this way, the very thing that is supposed to be liberating becomes
> ensnaring.
>
> dmb says:
> Exactly. Well said. That's what I was trying to say. Its sadly ironic that
> the myths and metaphors have become the dirt on the window instead of the
> window itself. Its even more sad and more ironic that we seem to have MOQers
> who would celebrate the dirt and condemn the windows.
>
> Oooops. Gotta go. More later, hopefully.
> dmb
>
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