[MD] sq social - sq intellectual

[Platt Holden]

> > Would I be correct to presume that you disagree with the following
> > statement by Mr. Pirsig?
> >
> > "The idea that biological crimes can be ended by intellect alone, that
> > you can talk crime to death, doesn't work. Intellectual patterns
> > cannot directly control biological patterns. Only social patterns can
> > control biological patterns, and the instrument of conversation
> > between society and biology is not words. The instrument of
> > conversation between society and biology has always been a policeman
> > or a soldier and his gun." (Lila, 24)
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Platt

[Gene] 
> It is completely correct! If someone attempts a terrorist action, shoot
> him. Biological vs. biological. But terrorism isn't purely biological.
> Like I said previously, it is an Idea. A belief system. And to fight
> against that, we need to undermine and attack those Ideas.

I don't know how you undermine or attack the idea of "Death to Israel" 
and "Death to America" without defeating those who are willing to act 
on that idea, just as in WW II those dedicated to killing us were 
forced to accept unconditional surrender.   

> Destroying people's homes and communities does not help us win their
> minds.

In WW II we destroyed homes and communities in both Germany and Japan.
Have we not won their minds? Seems to me we have. Today they are 
allies.

[ Platt:]
> >I would submit that Islamic Fascism does not support dominance of social
> > values  over biological values, nor does Islam support dominance of
> > intellectual  values over social values. Thus, by terms of the MOQ
> > moral hierarchy, Western cultures are morally superior to Islamic
> > cultures. Islamic cultures are changeable as witness the effort by
> > many in Iraq to establish a democracy where the intellectual  values
> > of free speech and freedom of religion from state interference  would
> > guaranteed by law. 
 
> And I am here to say that they do Precisely that! In fact islam has a
> much stronger control over the biological than western society does!
> They restrict their diet, don't drink, don't have wanton sex, and fast
> for societal reasons. Sure, to us many of these things seem repressive.
> But they Are societal values subordinating and dominating biological
> values. Islam does a much better job of this than we do.

Islam does, yes. But not Islam Fascism. It aggressively uses biological 
terrorism against the innocent, the attack of 9/11 being a case in 
point not to mention attacks in England, Spain and other countries.  

> You're pretty much spot on about the intellectual values over societal
> values being lacking there. And that's where we should come in. We
> should be giving them Ideas. If you can't fight biological forces with
> intellectual values, then what the hell makes you think we should fight
> intellectual forces with biological values?!

You admitted biological vs. biological is moral. And you admitted 
intellectual values are lacking in Fascist Islam. 

> It makes no sense I tell you. Biological force from us only strengthens
> the societal and existing intellectual powers that be, because that is
> how they are constructed.
> 
> The harder we punch, the harder they will punch back. One of us is gonna
> have to stop, and I don't think they're capable of it.

If this were true, we would be under the heel of the Nazi boot or the 
Imperial Japanese sword today.

Thanks for the conversation. 

Platt