[MD] 1961 Paper - "Quality in Freshman Writing"

[Dan Glover]

Hello everyone

>From: "ian glendinning" <psybertron at gmail.com>
>Reply-To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>Subject: Re: [MD] 1961 Paper - "Quality in Freshman Writing"
>Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 16:07:56 -0600
>
>Hi Dan,
>
>I've certainly shared this stuff (and the Granger / Deweyian /
>Pirsigian aesthetic references) with "Friends of Wisdom" ... who are
>all about improving teaching in educational institutions.

Hi Ian

That's good. The meager experience I've had with higher education led me to 
believe that students were there to learn what the instructors were there to 
teach. Period. There seemed an unspoken assumption that if it were worth 
teaching they'd be teaching it already. I am glad things have changed.

>
>They liked it. We should not understimate how sympathetic the world is
>to hearing this stuff in context. If we don't share, we'll never know.
>(It was from that group that I got the Wayne Booth rhetorical teaching
>link too - I can't remember whether I posted that link here ?

It doesn't sound familar.

>Fascinating.)
>
>"Knowing whether a writer cares" - the value of rhetoric.
>
>Ian
>PS, I know from DMB's responses that almost everything I write is junk too 
>:-)

Yeah, well don't feel too bad about that. I'm an obsessive compulsive 
orthodox hindu know-it-all poser. I suppose things could always be worse 
though. I could live in Cleveland.

Thanks for your comments,

Dan



>
>On 12/12/06, Dan Glover <daneglover at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Hello everyone
> >
> > >From: "Michael Hamilton" <thethemichael at gmail.com>
> > >Reply-To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> > >To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> > >Subject: Re: [MD] 1961 Paper - "Quality in Freshman Writing"
> > >Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 23:39:13 +0000
> > >
> > >First off, big thanks to Ian for getting hold of this, and thanks also
> > >to Bob, if he's reading this, for supplying it!
> >
> > Hi Michael
> >
> > Thank you for bringing the matter up. It is a good paper. I enjoyed 
>reading
> > it.
> >
> > >
> > >I'd been wondering if this piece would show some kind of different
> > >perspective from ZMM and Lila - after all, this is the first thing
> > >we've seen written by the "Phaedrus" of ZMM, before
> > >insanity/enlightenment and the electrodes... but on first reading,
> > >this doesn't seem to be the case. The crucial passage from ZMM about
> > >the "many marvellous analogues" etc is there just the same. This whole
> > >part of ZMM about teaching quality and the subsequent waves of
> > >crystallisation was always the part that blew me away, so it's useful
> > >to have it against in a slightly different and more self-contained
> > >form.
> >
> > I've always been under the impression that the MOQ crystalized in Robert
> > Pirsig's mind at the peyote meeting so it's interesting to read another
> > perspective.
> >
> > >
> > >Anyway, I hadn't asked to see this paper with the intention of prying
> > >into the development of Phaedrus's psyche or whatever... I asked to
> > >see it because I'm now a university first-year, and struggling to
> > >write. Academic essays, though. Not creative composition. But perhaps
> > >the difference between the two isn't so great. If rotisserie assemply
> > >is a form of sculpture, then writing an essay is easily a form of
> > >creative composition. There's no single way of doing it, it's a craft.
> >
> > Like any worthwhile endeavor, to write well requires a great deal of 
>work. I
> > think the key is to make it look easy. To do that, a writer has to 
>express
> > something with every word. Otherwise the reader knows the writer just
> > doesn't care. At least this reader feels that way.
> >
> > >
> > >I've written lots of essays before, but I've always been uneasy with
> > >the process of writing, and it was getting more and more tortuous. To
> > >be honest, even writing this involves annoying levels of
> > >self-criticism, rather than being a simple, honest flow of
> > >consciousness. This is a big gumption trap, no doubt about it. Or
> > >perhaps it stems from a lack of gumption at the outset. Dunno.
> >
> > A spark of interest and some kindling of thought is a good start. I know
> > from the start that most everything I write is trash. If anyone let that
> > stop them, there would be no writers at all. Even the greatest writers 
>have
> > written just horrible junk.
> >
> > Still, there's all kinds of gumption traps a person can fall into. 
>Reading
> > has worked to spark my writings at those times.
> >
> > >
> > >One thing I am sure of: education would be a much better experience
> > >for everyone if all teachers (at any level) read this paper.
> >
> > Why not share it with them? Or is that something "that isn't done"?
> >
> > Don't be a stranger.
> >
> > Dan
> >
> >
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