[MD] The Edge 2006 Annual Question

[ian glendinning]

Bo,

You said
"Ian believes my SOL to be (the 4th level seen as) "objectivism",
while it really is S/O-ism!!!!!!"

I know. An "ism" that makes a distinction between subjects and
objects, therefore depends on recognition of "objects".
GOF-Objectivism is GOF-S/O ism - it recognises objects distinct from
non-objects.

Please engage Bo, rather than being dismissive, or I can sympathise
why Squonk resorts to personal abuse :-)

Ian


On 1/10/06, skutvik at online.no <skutvik at online.no> wrote:
> Mike and Masses.
>
> I may lag behind I see from today's posts that Ian believes my
> SOL to be (the 4th level seen as) "objectivism", while it really is
> S/O-ism!!!!!!
>
> Anyway over to your "follow ups" where I start with the first one.
>
> > > > The wide sense in which I used "objectivity" in the last couple of
> > > > posts seems like a synonym for "truth", so perhaps to keep the
> > > > usefulness of the word "objective" I should go back to using it in
> > > > the mere Cartesian sense of "objects", which the 4th level CAN
> > > > move beyond, as opposed to the wide sense of "true for everyone,
> > > > everywhere, for all time", which the 4th level can NOT move
> > > > beyond. However, keeping in mind the wider sense will help greatly
> > > > in understanding what Bo is banging on about.
>
> I understand your pointing this out, yet if the 4th level is the S/O
> dualism it's committed to them all. The "subject" and "object"
> terms are of course rather recent (does anyone know?) the 300
> BC Greeks did definitely not know them, but Pirsig used it (in
> ZMM) as the common denominator for the new "quality-less"
> reality that took over from the old quality-filled one.
>
> Your second:
>
> > > Intellectual (4th-level) acceptance of the MOQ, is the realisation
> > > that SOM does NOT work for everyone, everywhere, for all time. It is
> > > an acceptance that the SQ/DQ metaphysics CAN work for everyone,
> > > everywhere, for all time.
>
> The MOQ says that all levels began when a pattern of the former
> "took off on a purpose of its own". The MOQ is no level yet
> displays level-like traits vs the 4th level, which means that some
> intellectual (S/O) pattern was used to establish the MOQ. Looking
> back on ZMM it's evident that the argument circles around
> science; Einstein, Poincaré, Euclid, and it is also clear that
> physics is the reason that many wrongly believe Pirsig to be a
> NewAger. My warning here is that this merely leads to
> subjectivism and I have repeatedly pointed to the fact that the
> subjective "horn" was rejected too.
>
> > > As the DQ component cannot be defined,
> > > intellectual acceptance of the MOQ is an acceptance that the
> > > metaphysics which can work for everyone, everywhere, for all time,
> > > CANNOT be intellectually defined. Therefore, intellectual acceptance
> > > of the MOQ paves the way for moving beyond intellect (beyond the 4th
> > > level) because it is an acceptance that reality cannot be
> > > intellectually defined.
> > > Making any sense?
>
> Yes lots of sense, but IMO it's not merely DQ, but the complete
> DQ/SQ configuration which reveals MOQ's supremacy over its
> own 4th level  ...while this level posed as SOM.
>
> "Intellectual acceptance of the MOQ" is a bit ambiguous. It
> sounds as if MOQ has made into the 4th level and lodges there,
> but ....well, MOQ surely pried its way into intellect, but it just went
> through and intellect never knew what hit it; One moment S/O
> Metaphysics, the next part of another metaphysics.
>
> Your final input:
>
> > In other words, the MOQ is where the 4th level admits its own
> > inadequacy, and even creates a structure of thought to demonstrate its
> > own inadequacy - in the same way as society admitted its own
> > inadequacy by relaxing its powers of coercion to allow individual
> > liberty - which we now can recognise was done in the service of DQ.
>
> This one I commented indirectly in yesterday's post to Scott.
> Anyway great stuff Mike.
>
> Bo
>
>
>
>
>
>
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