[MD] Julian Baggini Interview with Pirsig

[Matt Kundert]

Hey Ian,

Ian said:
You may have to expand on your two phrases though, before I understand your 
more precise take on it.

"is a function of" and "co-extensive with"

Matt:
Oh, I just meant the whole thing Pirsig was talking about with the "rhetoric 
is the parent of dialectic" stuff.  So as I understood those passages from 
Pirsig, rhetoric isn't to be compared to logic/dialectic because rhetoric is 
the same thing as writing/speaking/thinking.  Its the ground, the whole 
thing.  Logic is a _piece_ of writing/speaking/thinking, and there are other 
pieces, but what we call the sum total of those things is "rhetoric."  
Comparing dialectic to rhetoric, on this understanding of Pirsig's view, 
would be like saying, "the hand is just as relevant as the finger."  Its a 
little weird.

We can attach an acceptable sense to it, ala, don't forget the whole while 
looking at the parts (and vice versa), but the view Pirsig was reacting 
against (Plato and Aristotle's) was that logic and rhetoric were distinct 
atoms, not whole/part.  _And_, this is why Pirsig's comment that started 
this little thread of conversation looked weird to me.  He was kind of 
distinguishing between rhetoric and philosophy as two distinct atoms (that 
forever get intertwined), rather than saying that philosophy comes out of 
rhetoric, and because of that, other pieces of rhetoric (like the subtle 
kinds of phrasing one uses like "the Metaphysics of Quality says" rather 
than "I think") can play a part in shaping ones message.  Pirsig wanted to 
say that his phrasing doesn't matter at all to his philosophy.  I think 
Baggini has a point (the same one I made in an essay) and that Pirsig can, 
on the one hand, still say that phrasing doesn't matter all _that_ much to 
his general message, but on the other hand, I think he has to accept that 
his presentation does have effects on his readers and on his philosophy.  
Its something I think he should think about more, though his response to 
Baggini (by making a sharp distinction between philosophy and the words it 
is wrapped in) suggests that he won't coutenance the thought (though perhaps 
that was simply a function of his frustration with Baggini at that point).

Matt

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