[MD] So cometh MOQ, what next?

Fri Nov 3 09:21:39 PST 2006

 Micah,
This is a tough question, I would'nt be so hasty as to say anyone was
wrong just yet. d

-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of Micah
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 12:07 PM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next?

Ron,

You are wrong, the Jews are not a race they are a religious group.
Hebrews are a race. Sammy Davis Jr. was a Jew, does he fit the ethnic
profile? I can convert to Judaism...can I convert to another race? And
lastly, ONLY if you believe in god can you consider that the Jews are a
race, that's not how I roll.

Micah

-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On Behalf Of Ron Kulp
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 10:52 AM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next?

 An ethnic group is a human population whose members identify with each
other, usually on the basis of a presumed common genealogy or ancestry
(Smith, 1986). Ethnic groups are also usually united by common cultural,
behavioural, linguistic, or religious practices. In this sense, an
ethnic group is also a cultural community.

While ethnicity and race are related concepts (Abizadeh 2001), the
concept of ethnicity is rooted in the idea of social groups, marked
especially by shared nationality, tribal affiliation, genealogy,
religious faith, language, or cultural and traditional origins, whereas
race is rooted in the idea of a biological classification of Homo
sapiens according to chosen genotypic and/or phenotypic traits, and a
belief that such differences among human beings are of such a magnitude
as to be classified by the anthropological sense of "race", i.e.
subspecies.

Biblically, the term Hebrew refers to all the Children of Eber, and in
particular the descendants listed in the Hebrew Bible of the patriarch
Jacob, who was later renamed Israel, literally meaning "to struggle with
God". Hebrews are also referred to as the Children of Israel (B'nai
Yisroel) for this reason. According to the Bible, Jacob partitioned the
land between 10 of his 12 sons and two of his grandsons (the two sons of
Joseph, Jacob's favorite son); and thus, biblically, the Hebrews
constitute Twelve Tribes. The third son Levi, being the priestly tribe,
was not apportioned land, but instead his descendents were entitled to
receive a tax and lands from among the twelve tribes.

Today, most Jews support the biblical stance, and consider themselves
descended from a few of these tribes; the Tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and
parts of Levi (the priestly tribe - who in the period of the kingdoms of
Judah and Israel had no continuous territory, unlike the others). Some
would say the Tribe of Simeon is included in this list, due to a view
that the Tribe of Simeon was absorbed by the Tribe of Judah. The
remainder of the Twelve Tribes are said to have been exiled by the
Assyrian Empire, leading to the legend in the Western world of the Lost
Tribes of Israel.

Many Christians support this view of the origin of modern Jews. Certain
Christian groups sometimes use the term 'Hebrews' to distinguish the
Jews in ancient times that lived before the birth of Jesus from Jews
that lived afterward.

Jews often use the term 'Hebrews' to distinguish the descendants of
Jacob prior to the writing of the Torah, or "The Five Books of Moses."

-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of Micah
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 11:36 AM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next?

Platt,

The Jews are a religious group. The holocaust was the persecution of
Jews, therefore it was religious persecution. If the Jews were a race,
it would have been racism, but they are religious group and that makes
it religious persecution.

Micah

-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On Behalf Of pholden at davtv.com
Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 7:42 PM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next?

Quoting Micah <micah at roarkplumbing.com>:

> Platt,
>
> Was group of people did Hitler persecute? Was it the Jews? Aren't the 
> Jews
a
> religious group? So isn't that religious persecution?
>
> Micah

I don't consider the Holocaust motivated by religious belief. I agree
with Pirsig that it was caused by "low level static social and
biological patterns whose overall purpose was to retard the evolution of
truth and Dynamic Quality."
But
Hitler did say he was God's appointed savior of the German people. So in
that twisted sense, the Nazis cyncially used religious belief to gain
and hold power.
But you still haven't provided evidence to support your assertion that
religion is "the most destructive force in history." I'm not saying such
evidence doesn't exist, just that I haven't seen it.

Platt

>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On Behalf Of pholden at davtv.com
> Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 2:39 PM
> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Subject: Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next?
>
>
> Quoting Micah <micah at roarkplumbing.com>:
>
> > Platt,
> >
> > How about WW2. Hitler was doing god's work, and his persecution of 
> > the
> Jews
> > was religious, since Judaism is not a race. Our current fiasco in 
> > Iraq
is
> > religious. Certainly Muslims think it is, even if we are just 
> > acquiring
> new
> > markets for capitalism - while Bush says he is guided by god.
> > Religion
is
> > clearly the most destructive force in history. I will not give you a
> history
> > course to prove the point either, I only hold my children's hands.
>
> Hitler's persecution of the Jews was religious? Like our presence in
Iraq?
> Guess we have a different understanding of the word "religious."
> Anyway,
you
> don't have to give a history course to prove your point. Just a 
> recognized authority will do, if you can find one.
>
> Platt
>
>
>
>
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