[MD] So cometh MOQ, what next?

Fri Nov 3 09:34:35 PST 2006

Ron,

I grew up with many American Indians, and have been to a few ceremonies in
my time. Even had a Indian (Greg) live with us for a summer, not sure why -
I guess my parents were trying to butter the white bread. My experience with
American Indians I know, is that they see the world from a different angle,
and regard much of white culture as ridiculous. Couldn't argue with them,
but I could certainly laugh with them about it. But a spiritual belief is
not a race, it is a religion.

Micah

-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On Behalf Of Ron Kulp
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 11:22 AM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next?

 Micah,
If that is what your using as a dividing line then I'd say your right, I
concede.
American Indian is not a race either, we're lumped in with asians I
believe..and if you want to come to the pow-wows and worship the spirits
With us I'd think the elders would be cool with it. There are MANY
different tribes, all with different spiritual beliefs you know...
Not to be cocky or indignant.
-Ron

-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of Micah
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 12:13 PM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next?

Ron,

I cannot convert to American Indian, but I can convert to Judaism. The
line is not blurred. The Jews are religious a group, not an ethnic or
racial group.

Micah

-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On Behalf Of Ron Kulp
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 11:08 AM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next?

 Micah,
the distinction between "racial" and "ethnic" seems to be blurred, I
have not found where this is acuratly defined.
But the nazi's used to single them out by name and apearance, dare I go
down the list of racial slurrs?
No doubt Hitler used religeon but he used "racial superiority" to
support his endeavores too.
-Ron

-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of Micah
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 11:57 AM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next?

Ron,

"The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" by Shirer, chronicles Hitler's
use of religion in waging war and persecuting peoples. Yes, the Hebrews
are a racial group, but Jews are a religious group, not a race. By the
way Palestinians are Semites, does that make people like Sharon
anti-Semitic?

Micah

-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On Behalf Of Ron Kulp
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 10:44 AM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next?

Micah,
 Hitler wrote: "I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will
of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am
fighting for the work of the Lord.." As a boy, Hitler attended to the
Catholic church and experienced the anti-Semitic attitude of his
culture. In his book, Mein Kampf, Hitler reveals himself as a fanatical
believer in God and country

I've already hit platt with this and he changed his opinion of it. By
the way Hebrews are a racial group too.
-Ron

-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of Micah
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 11:36 AM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next?

Platt,

The Jews are a religious group. The holocaust was the persecution of
Jews, therefore it was religious persecution. If the Jews were a race,
it would have been racism, but they are religious group and that makes
it religious persecution.

Micah

-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On Behalf Of pholden at davtv.com
Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 7:42 PM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next?

Quoting Micah <micah at roarkplumbing.com>:

> Platt,
>
> Was group of people did Hitler persecute? Was it the Jews? Aren't the
> Jews
a
> religious group? So isn't that religious persecution?
>
> Micah

I don't consider the Holocaust motivated by religious belief. I agree
with Pirsig that it was caused by "low level static social and
biological patterns whose overall purpose was to retard the evolution of
truth and Dynamic Quality."
But
Hitler did say he was God's appointed savior of the German people. So in
that twisted sense, the Nazis cyncially used religious belief to gain
and hold power.
But you still haven't provided evidence to support your assertion that
religion is "the most destructive force in history." I'm not saying such
evidence doesn't exist, just that I haven't seen it.

Platt

>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On Behalf Of pholden at davtv.com
> Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 2:39 PM
> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Subject: Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next?
>
>
> Quoting Micah <micah at roarkplumbing.com>:
>
> > Platt,
> >
> > How about WW2. Hitler was doing god's work, and his persecution of
> > the
> Jews
> > was religious, since Judaism is not a race. Our current fiasco in
> > Iraq
is
> > religious. Certainly Muslims think it is, even if we are just
> > acquiring
> new
> > markets for capitalism - while Bush says he is guided by god.
> > Religion
is
> > clearly the most destructive force in history. I will not give you a
> history
> > course to prove the point either, I only hold my children's hands.
>
> Hitler's persecution of the Jews was religious? Like our presence in
Iraq?
> Guess we have a different understanding of the word "religious."
> Anyway,
you
> don't have to give a history course to prove your point. Just a
> recognized authority will do, if you can find one.
>
> Platt
>
>
>
>
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