[MD] Flying Spagetti Monsters

Sat Nov 4 16:28:55 PST 2006

Case,

In fact our senses are our only direct connection to reality, to say
otherwise is a contradiction.

Kant is using his senses to deny his senses, and contradictions do not exist
in nature.

Have some ketchup while thinking about that, it has natural mellowing
agents.

Micah

-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On Behalf Of Case
Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 8:49 PM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] Flying Spagetti Monsters

Micah,

I thought The Thirteenth Floor was a more interesting treatment of the
problem. It came out the same year as the Matrix, I think.

I do trust my senses. They are marvelously evolved to get me through the
day. But they do not provide direct contact with anything, that is just a
fact.

But here's a line on that one:

"There's more to the picture than meets the eye. Hey hey, my my"
-Neil Young

What specifically bugs you about Kant?

As for life's persistent questions, it's hard to beat your homeboy, Guy
Noir.

Case

-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of Micah
Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 9:29 PM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] Flying Spagetti Monsters

Case,

The Matrix is my favorite movie. I always thought it was a formula movie
based on Joseph Campbell's "Myth" work. It is chock full of religious
symbolism and references. Cypher was the cautionary Judas figure, who
chooses not to know. Great movie.

I am struck that you are again, using your senses to distrust your senses.
Which is it, do you trust your senses or not? Smells like Kant to me.

Here's my favorite line, from my favorite band -

"We live, as we dream, alone." - Gang of Four

That really sums it up and explains the last line from Edie.

I thought philosophy was common sense answers to life's persistent little
questions. So I'm here doing a reality check.

Micah

-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On Behalf Of Case
Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 6:49 PM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] Flying Spagetti Monsters

Micah,

Descartes was among the first to propose the clever demons argument. Having
done so, he rejected it on shaky grounds. The Wachowski brothers updated a
version of this problem in The Matrix. On the one hand I don't buy it but on
the other, I sympathize with Cypher's regret at having taken the blue pill.

As for testing the theory I prefer pounding my thumb with a hammer every now
and then. Like your offer of being run down by a red Corvette it really does
not test the theory. But what the hammer lacks in sex appeal it makes up in
repeatability.

An important point you are missing is that we have no direct experience of
"reality" at all. None. We have only the evidence of our senses which are
partial representations of what going on a little while ago.

We trust the evidence or our senses, or as I like to say we have faith in
them. But this is based on our recollections of past experience. There is no
guarantee that the future will be like the past but that's cool 'cause it's
worked out so far.

If all you are looking for is common sense answers to life's persistent
questions why bother with a philosophy discussion listserve?

As Edie Brickell put it:

Philosophy is the talk on a cereal box
Religion is the smile on a dog
I'm not aware of too many things but
I know what I know if you know what I mean

Sorry, I gotta go soak my thumb... Again!

Case

-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of Micah
Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 1:26 PM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] Flying Spagetti Monsters

Case,

We could try an experiment to show the red Corvette exists. You stand in the
road and I'll speed towards you, if you pass through the Corvette - you're a
Solipsist, if we have an automowdown, I'm an Objectivist.

How many clever demons fit on the head of a needle?

What if I'm color blind???...what if I'm ten feet tall? what if I'm an
alien? what if I'm god? what if I'm green Jell-O? what if I'm the
Hamburglar? what if I'm Jupiter? what if I'm Dean Martin? what if I'm...

I'm not color blind, but that is irrelevant to the color of the spectrum
reflected by the red corvette.

What is known, does not require belief.

Our senses are the direct and only access to reality.

As to what your senses reveal, we can review that during your ambulance
ride.

Boo!

Micah

-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On Behalf Of Case
Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 10:22 PM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] Flying Spagetti Monsters

[Micah]
I know that a red corvette can be shown to exist, and that we can also
measure to the precise color (red) of the spectrum it is reflecting. That is
not Solipsism.

[Case]
How to you know this? On what basis can your Corvette be show to exist?
Clever demons alter the spectrum three times before breakfast. What if you
are color blind?

You think the problem of Solipsism goes away because you say Boo? The world
exists because you say it does? That powerful mojo!

[Micah]
I also know that the corvette cannot be shown to exist if no humans exist.
Reality is objective in the presence of two or more humans.
Perspective requires two or more humans.

[Case]
So I should believe whatever you say because you "know" it? But wait, now it
takes two or more humans. So like the party of the first part having shared
reality with the party of the second part are now possessors of their own
universe divided by two?
It's a law? It's required? Are there more requirements? Are there fines?

MenKind is the measure of all things?
Persons of similar or mixed genderhood is the measure of all things?
Sentient beings of similar genetic persuasion are the measure of all things?

[Micah]
To assume reality is an illusion requires the use of your senses, to negate
the use of you senses. A contradiction. Reality is objective in the presence
of two or more humans. A is A. But reality cannot be shown to exist without
humans.

[Case]
I assume I have senses because this is impossible to doubt. As to what they
reveal it is impossible to be certain. If all you are looking for is a
feeling of certainty you can rationalize, reality is not required and logic
is just a chew toy.

We have no direct access to this reality of which you speak. Math logic and
equations are descriptions of reality. We judge them based on mutual
consensus. Reality does no appear wherever two or more are gathered in its
name. But where two or more are so gathered, consensus could require that A
is B or that Jeanie Ate Her Read Corvette.

[Micah]
Can you agree with that?

[Case]
There is hope but it is fading fast.

-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On Behalf Of Case
Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 6:47 AM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] Flying Spagetti Monsters

Solipsism is the belief that all of reality exists only inside your own
skin. It is the Cogito Ergo Sum. It is the only certainty we have, flimsy
though it may be. It does not imply that you can control reality or at least
it doesn't inside my head. Belief in anything outside of your self requires
use of the tools you come equipped with: your senses, your common sense.

If as you say, you accept the existence of others similar to yourself, then
you are doing so based on faith. You do not have direct experience of them
or of anything else. You can believe whatever you want inside your own head
but eventually most of us come to believe, that the value of the contents of
our own heads is measured against the illusion we see around us. If there is
no correspondence between what our senses tell us and what we think about it
our genes drift toward the shallow end of the pool.

Case

-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of Micah
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 9:07 PM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] Flying Spagetti Monsters

Case,

Please review the definition of Solipsism. I am not espousing Solipsism, I
do not say we control reality.

But you are right this is about faith. 2 + 2 = 4, I know this is logical,
but is it also an article of faith? Could 2 + 2 = 5 with enough faith? Or is
logic not a faith?

Micah

-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On Behalf Of Case
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 4:42 PM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] Flying Spagetti Monsters

[Micah]
You are confused, we now exist independent of the Dodo bird (extinct), and
we would still exist if we killed all monkeys (which I do not advocate), but
nothing can be shown to exist independent of humans and I hate to keep
harping on this - but this a fact. I know of only one reality - please
describe the "other" reality.

[Case]
An important point you are missing is that there is no WE in what you are
describing. Everything you are saying about Dodo birds and monkeys applies
to all of the humans you know as well. You have no basis for attributing
consciousness or awareness to them either. You are espousing naked
solipsism. The fact that there is no logical argument around this problem is
not surprising since none has yet to be offered up. At present the only
escape from solipsism is faith. You claim to have no faith and yet you
appeal to logic. What is that if not an act of faith in logic? In any event
logic will not solve the problem.

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