[MD] Flying Spaghetti Monsters

[Micah]

Ham,

>It has been some time since I've read Rand, but I do have a couple of her
>books and a fairly good understanding of her Objectivism.  Nowhere have I
>seen anything in her writings that would support your reality concept.  In
>fact, I don't recall Rand having outlined an epistemology as such.
However,
>Dr. Leonard Peikoff, in his book "Objectivism: The Philosophy of Ayn Rand,"
>has stated it as the "primacy of existence over consciousness":

>"The primacy of existence is not an independent principle.  It is an
>elaboration, a further corollary, of the basic axioms.  Existence precedes
>consciousness because consciousness is consciousness of an object.  Nor can
>consciousness create or suspend the laws governing its objects, because
>every entity is something and acts accordingly [i.e., according to its
>identity, not according to the desires of consciousness].  Consciousness,
>therefore, is only a faculty of awareness.  It is the power to grasp, to
>find out, to discover that which is.  It is not a power to alter or control
>the nature of its objects."


Odd little contradiction in Peikoff's statement. Existence cannot
objectively be shown to exist without the presence of man. That would be an
assumption. Consciousness and existence cannot exist independently of each
other. They exist simultaneously in the quality event. They interact on the
playing field of quality. Neither consciousness nor existence is primary.

Micah


-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On Behalf Of Ham Priday
Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 7:13 PM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] Flying Spaghetti Monsters


Hi Micah --



> I believe I saluted the "Fringe" when you first ran it up the flagpole, in
a
> reply to an earlier post.

Yes, my oversight.  There's a lapse in our postings, and I hadn't seen that
post when I wrote you on the 14th.  Thank you, and I return the salute.

> I find Pirsig and Rand compatible, hand in glove.
> I'll share it with you as best I can.

It has been some time since I've read Rand, but I do have a couple of her
books and a fairly good understanding of her Objectivism.  Nowhere have I
seen anything in her writings that would support your reality concept.  In
fact, I don't recall Rand having outlined an epistemology as such.  However,
Dr. Leonard Peikoff, in his book "Objectivism: The Philosophy of Ayn Rand,"
has stated it as the "primacy of existence over consciousness":

"The primacy of existence is not an independent principle.  It is an
elaboration, a further corollary, of the basic axioms.  Existence precedes
consciousness because consciousness is consciousness of an object.  Nor can
consciousness create or suspend the laws governing its objects, because
every entity is something and acts accordingly [i.e., according to its
identity, not according to the desires of consciousness].  Consciousness,
therefore, is only a faculty of awareness.  It is the power to grasp, to
find out, to discover that which is.  It is not a power to alter or control
the nature of its objects."

You have clearly taken my position on this issue, which is that proprietary
(subjective) awareness is primary to objective existence.  If Peikoff is
right, it contradicts Rand's Objectivism.  And you've seen ample evidence
that it irks the Pirsigians.  So, my question is: How do you reconcile the
individualism of Rand's philosophy with the non-individualism of Pirsig?
(Remember that Pirsig does not define Experience as subjective, but as "the
cutting edge of reality".  To him Experience "equals" reality (Quality); it
does not "create" it.)

How is it possible to be an objectivist in a reality constructed by the
individual and at the same time accept Pirsig's doctrine that there is
neither subject nor object?  Yes, please share this knowledge with me,
Micah.  And let's make it the first debate posted under the "Fringe Factor"
heading.

Your partner on the fringe,
Ham

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